# (U.S.) Imperialism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 3, 2002, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162 "2002-12-03T05:48:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![obo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ba8739/32.png) [@obo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162/81 "2002-12-09T16:10:22Z")
Well, after reading the posts here, the main difference between American imperialsm an the more ancient versions is that the American version hasnt finished yet. All of the others mentioned can be reviewed through history, what they achieved or failed at, whether they were good, bad or indifferent. The American Empire is in its early stage, no one really knows how it will finish. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162/82 "2002-12-09T16:39:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*IBecause of their rules, a Libertarian Party candidate in New York, for example, must collect 50,000 signatures before he can even run. Each time he wants to run. \*\* Well, IIRC, only the first time. Then, after that, as long as the party gets at least 5% of the vote (in the race for governor, I think?), the party stays on the ballot. ---
**Author:** ![MSU\_1978](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@MSU\_1978](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MSU_1978)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162/83 "2002-12-09T17:06:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > **Withdrawal** of American power!? Democratization!? Jeezuss! There is nothing so blindingly apparent from even a cursory glance at the world that the U.S. has been doing anything but _withdrawing_! Furthermore, the main goal of U.S. foreign policy has been, and continues to be, the _deterrence_ of democracy. ] Excuse me? What about Nazi Germany? What about Imperial Japan? The United States defeated these enemies and then helped them back on their feet and helped them institute democratic governments. Would a truly ruthless imperial country come up with the Marshall Plan to rebuild the economy of fallen enemies? ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162/84 "2002-12-09T20:27:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MSU 1978 \* > \*\*Excuse me? What about Nazi Germany? What about Imperial Japan? The United States defeated these enemies and then helped them back on their feet and helped them institute democratic governments. Would a truly ruthless imperial country come up with the Marshall Plan to rebuild the economy of fallen enemies? \*\* It’s funny how apologists for U.S. imperialism always have to go back to WWII to point to a good example of U.S. intervention. The U.S. has never cared about democracy. What they did after WWII was to create societies in Germany and Japan that were capitalist. The forms of democracy that existed were secondary, and always subject to veto if the people made a wrong decision in the eyes of their masters. After WWII, the U.S. went to work undermining the anti-Fascist resistance in Europe, recruiting a whole host of Nazis to help them carry out this work, such as Klaus Barbie. The goal was to re-institute capitalist governments in Europe, and consolidate its position as the most powerful imperialist state. The U.S. basically took over all of the old European colonial systems, pushing out the European powers from their old positions. The Marshall Plan, which came about in 1948 by the way, was not about rebuilding the countries destroyed in WWII, but in consolodating the capitalist powers being threatened by communist movements. You see, it was mostly communists and other leftists who defeated the Nazis. About 80% of the war in Europe was fought on the Eastern front, and the anti-Fascist resistance in France and Italy had won a great deal of respect from the populations. They were threatening to take power in numerous European governments through the democratic process. Italy was one of the first victims of U.S. interventionism after WWII. The communists in Italy looked like they were headed to victory in Italian elections. The U.S. stepped in with massive funding to capitalist candidates, with various propaganda campaigns, and outright disruption and electoral fraud, to ensure that Italians would not choose the wrong side. It was the same around the world. While U.S. leaders proclaimed their commitment to national independence, they were making promises to France that they would support their reconquest of Indochina. The amount of aid sent to France was approximately the same amount that France was spending in its reconquest of Indochina. This, of course, led to the U.S. invasion of Vietnam. It is a funny thing how people can believe that the U.S. was this benevolent power out to help people with the Marshall Plan. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162/85 "2002-12-09T20:50:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\* > > Italy was one of the first victims of U.S. interventionism after WWII. The communists in Italy looked like they were headed to victory in Italian elections. The U.S. stepped in with massive funding to capitalist candidates, with various propaganda campaigns, and outright disruption and electoral fraud, to ensure that Italians would not choose the wrong side. > \*\* Thank heavens. Even if it was underhanded, a capitalist democracy is preferrable to any communist nation. Just look at the track record. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162/86 "2002-12-09T21:22:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daoloth \* > \*\*Thank heavens. Even if it was underhanded, a capitalist democracy is preferrable to any communist nation. Just look at the track record. \*\* LOL A capitalist _democracy_? When democracy is undermined, it is still a democracy? Who knows what would have happened if Italian democracy hadn’t been undermined? Perhaps it would have been a far more just society. At any rate, it is quite interesting how you apparently feel no qualms about undermining democracy, as long as it is for capitalism. Democracy is just fine, as long as the people make the right decision. And, the statement that capitalism is preferable to any commuist nation is obviously false. Simply compare, say, Yugoslavia, to Guatemala in the 1980’s. (I realize that Yugoslavia was not a communist state, but I will use the term “communism” in the technical sense used by capitalist ideologues to mean “any country that is not dominated by western capital.”) ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162/87 "2002-12-09T21:24:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*LOL > > A capitalist _democracy_? When democracy is undermined, it is still a democracy? > \*\* I don’t see how free trade undermines the freedom of people to select their leaders. ---
**Author:** ![Saen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Saen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saen)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162/88 "2002-12-09T21:31:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*It is a funny thing how people can believe that the U.S. was this benevolent power out to help people with the Marshall Plan. \*\* It’s not very funny how people weasel that everything the US does is anathema to every person in the world. Just a little bit of advice from a small patron of the planet and the country you seem to froth at the mouth about. When you have a single minded agenda, mixed with hate, the blinders can rub your eyes so raw that you can’t see through the scabs and pus from the inevitable infection the hate brings. Realpolitik is a foundation of every soveriegn government worthy of the name. Of course the US looks after itsown interests. It is absurd to even suggest that would somehow lessen its virtue just by trying to point out that it does happen. In your diatribe, the only thing you have proven was that does happen. And no matter how vehemently you postulate that any benefit the US recieves from her actions is to the detriment of everyone else, it does not make it so just because you said so. **MSU 1978** Claimed that the US helped rebuild those countries. Instead of refuting that assertion you only tried to undermine the actions with hidden agendas and speculation. To me, that is pretty weak and pathetic. His statement still stands. The US **did** help those other countries and it is pretty obvious they are the better for it. Unless you have prrrof to the contrary? ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162/89 "2002-12-09T21:39:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saen \* > **Realpolitik is a foundation of every soveriegn government worthy of the name. Of course the US looks after itsown interests. It is absurd to even suggest that would somehow lessen its virtue just by trying to point out that it does happen.** Again, I must point out the obvious. The U.S. does look after its own interests. But, what is it that we are speaking of when we say “the U.S.”? Who was “the U.S.” looking after in 1948? Was it southern blacks? Or women? Or gays? Or the American working classes? No, it was the ruling class of the U.S. When I speak of “the U.S.” I use it to mean the ruling class. It is not us whose interests are being looked after, but the 1% of the population which owns and runs the country. Their interests are not our interests. > [@](#): > > **In your diatribe, the only thing you have proven was that does happen. And no matter how vehemently you postulate that any benefit the US recieves from her actions is to the detriment of everyone else, it does not make it so just because you said so.** This is true. The benefits that accrue to the ruling class of the U.S. are almost always to the detriment of everybody else. > [@](#): > > **_MSU 1978_ Claimed that the US helped rebuild those countries. Instead of refuting that assertion you only tried to undermine the actions with hidden agendas and speculation.** The U.S., meaning the U.S. ruling class, helped to re-organize these countries along lines that would support their own interests. What, you don’t think they plan and think about their own interests? > [@](#): > > \*\*To me, that is pretty weak and pathetic. His statement still stands. The US _did_ help those other countries and it is pretty obvious they are the better for it. Unless you have prrrof to the contrary? \*\* I disagree. I don’t think Italy was better off for having its democracy undermined. I don’t think Germany was better off as a divided nation, as opposed to a united, un-aligned nation as the Soviets proposed. I don’t think any of these nations were better off by the maintainence of the capitalist hierarchy. And, I certainly don’t think Indochina, or the other colonies, was better off when the U.S. undertook to put them back under imperialist rule. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162/90 "2002-12-09T21:47:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MSU 1978 \* > Excuse me? What about Nazi Germany? What about Imperial Japan? The United States defeated these enemies and then helped them back on their feet and helped them institute democratic governments. To be fair, we Canadians helped a little with Nazi Germany. By the way, if the U.S. ruling class is opposed to Chumpsky, then I’m with them all the way. ---
**Author:** ![Saen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Saen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saen)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162/91 "2002-12-09T22:11:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*Again, I must point out the obvious. The U.S. does look after its own interests. But, what is it that we are speaking of when we say “the U.S.”? Who was “the U.S.” looking after in 1948? Was it southern blacks? Or women? Or gays? Or the American working classes? Well, considering these people you speak of are a hell of alot better off today than they were in 1947, I would guess… probably. But what does that have to do with Germany and Japan? > [@](#): > > No, it was the ruling class of the U.S. When I speak of “the U.S.” I use it to mean the ruling class. It is not us whose interests are being looked after, but the 1% of the population which owns and runs the country. Their interests are not our interests. The only ruling class I know of here would be the ones the citizens voted for for a term to represent thier own interests. If those representatives failed then that was the voters problem. And “our” interests are pretty much well taken care of by the ruling class that I vote for. Sure I disagree with some things on the agenda, but I know I wount get my wayy all the time. > [@](#): > > This is true. The benefits that accrue to the ruling class of the U.S. are almost always to the detriment of everybody else. Hyperbole…and a lie. > [@](#): > > The U.S., meaning the U.S. ruling class, helped to re-organize these countries along lines that would support their own interests. What, you don’t think they plan and think about their own interests? You repeating what I said confuses me. But how does that coincide with your hyperbole and…lie? > [@](#): > > I disagree. I don’t think Italy was better off for having its democracy undermined. I don’t think Germany was better off as a divided nation, as opposed to a united, un-aligned nation as the Soviets proposed. I don’t think any of these nations were better off by the maintainence of the capitalist hierarchy. And, I certainly don’t think Indochina, or the other colonies, was better off when the U.S. undertook to put them back under imperialist rule. \*\* LOL… oh I know. The Soviets had Germanys interest at heart all along and it was the imperilaistic “ruling class” of the west that created East Germany and was responsible for all of the attocities they commited. :rolleyes: Again, your false assertions, anti-American rhtoric and mouth frothing does not make it so just because you wish it to be. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2002, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162/92 "2002-12-09T23:32:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\* I don’t think Germany was better off as a divided nation, as opposed to a united, un-aligned nation as the Soviets proposed. \*\* That’s funny. West Germany was more prosperous and free, whilst East Germany was restrictive, murderous, and an economic pit of despair. The Western nations backed the West, and the USSR the east. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162/93 "2002-12-10T00:04:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daoloth \* > \*\*That’s funny. West Germany was more prosperous and free, whilst East Germany was restrictive, murderous, and an economic pit of despair. The Western nations backed the West, and the USSR the east. Go figure. \*\* Ah, but the West Germans only **thought** they were free. They were actually ruled by American crypto-fascists. And those people who were killed by the secret police in East Germany? Why, those were unpersons, of course. They don’t exist. They never existed. I really wish you’d learn to think properly about this. Perhaps you need re-education. [sub]Funny how there’s no objective difference between sarcasm and parroting Chumpsky’s beliefs.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162/94 "2002-12-10T00:59:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*crypto-fascists[/sub] \*\* Is there really such thing as a crypto-fascist? If so, what is it? I mean, there really is anarcho-syndicalism (“You there, Old Woman.” “Man!” “Man, sorry.”…) ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162/95 "2002-12-10T01:01:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by js\_africanus \* > \*\*Is there really such thing as a crypto-fascist? If so, what is it? I mean, there really is anarcho-syndicalism (“You there, Old Woman.” “Man!” “Man, sorry.”…) \*\* As someone noted here, IIRC, “crypto” in this sense refers to “secret.” I thought this was a recent concoction, until I read that George Lincoln Rockwell called JFK a “crypto-communist” as early as 1962. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162/96 "2002-12-10T01:06:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daoloth \* > \*\*As someone noted here, IIRC, “crypto” in this sense refers to “secret.” > > I thought this was a recent concoction, until I read that George Lincoln Rockwell called JFK a “crypto-communist” as early as 1962. \*\* Oh, okay. That makes perfect sense. Some might say that Ashcroft is a crypto-fascist because he wants to create a fascist fundamentalist theocracy here in America, but claims to be acting in American interests. No offense, Mr. A., that was just an example. ---
**Author:** ![MSU\_1978](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@MSU\_1978](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MSU_1978)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162/97 "2002-12-10T02:13:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*To be fair, we Canadians helped a little with Nazi Germany. > \*\* Of course, Bryan. I didn’t mean to leave out our friends the Canadians. Or the British. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162/98 "2002-12-10T02:18:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saen \* > **Well, considering these people [blacks, women, gays, the working classes, etc.] you speak of are a hell of alot better off today than they were in 1947, I would guess… probably. But what does that have to do with Germany and Japan?** Various groups are much better off today because they organized and fought for their rights. The ruling class fought tooth and nail against every progressive reform. The point of this is that in 1948 there was plenty of injustice in the world, and they didn’t have to go far to find it. Seeing as how the ruling class showed a depraved indifference to injustice at home, is is absurd to think they cared about democracy half-way around the world. No, they cared about the interests of their own class. > [@](#): > > **The only ruling class I know of here would be the ones the citizens voted for for a term to represent thier own interests.** hmmm …oh never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Saen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Saen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saen)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162/99 "2002-12-10T02:52:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*Various groups are much better off today because they organized and fought for their rights. The ruling class fought tooth and nail against every progressive reform. > > The point of this is that in 1948 there was plenty of injustice in the world, and they didn’t have to go far to find it. Seeing as how the ruling class showed a depraved indifference to injustice at home, is is absurd to think they cared about democracy half-way around the world. No, they cared about the interests of their own class. More Hyperbole and outright lies. Sure you can give me an example of how the “ruling class” denied certain rights here and there. But I know you cannot show me evidence of where these groups had to pull nails and teeth to get reform. I seem to remember a highly publicized event where the “ruling class” had to forcefully defend the “southern blacks” against some of your “American working classes” so that thier rights would not be denied them. Then worked to reform state laws that denied them rights. That is not fighting tooth and nail. > [@](#): > > Seeing as how the ruling class showed a depraved indifference to injustice at home, is is absurd to think they cared about democracy half-way around the world. Seeing as how you dont think the US does anything at all to further anything but themselves, it is absurd to even try to discuss an issue with someone who only has halftruths, innuendoes, and a fetish for spin. > [@](#): > > hmmm > > …oh never mind. \*\* What? Did you realize I dont believe in the Illuminati or other types of shadow government just because I saw it on a tv show? ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162/100 "2002-12-10T03:31:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saen \* > **More Hyperbole and outright lies. Sure you can give me an example of how the “ruling class” denied certain rights here and there. But I know you cannot show me evidence of where these groups had to pull nails and teeth to get reform.** Here and there? So, for example, blacks were only denied rights here and there? It was just some minor events that happened once in a while? It is the case that every progressive change has only come after decades of bitter popular struggle. This is true with every liberty we enjoy today. It is always struggle _against_ the ruling classes that brings liberty and justice. > [@](#): > > **Seeing as how you dont think the US does anything at all to further anything but themselves, it is absurd to even try to discuss an issue with someone who only has halftruths, innuendoes, and a fetish for spin.** The ruling classes of the U.S. serve their interests only. Why is that so surprising? Why would they work _against_ their own interests? We are talking about the most concentrated power that has ever existed? You don’t think they very carefully think about what they are doing? They have a lot to lose, and they don’t want to take chances: of course they work for their own interests! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-imperialism/140162.md?page=6)