# U.S. intelligence: Iran is not working on a bomb; but W says they're still a threat **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2007, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795 "2007-12-04T17:38:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795/241 "2007-12-09T01:34:54Z")
[QUOTE=Maeglin] I’m not really sure what **Finn** thinks he is whacking, but to me, it sure looks like he is whacking off. [/QUOTE] This is a violation of the explicit rule posted at the top of this Forum [Do not say or imply that your fellow posters achieve sexual gratification or soil themselves in glee/distress due to recent news reports, politcal icongraphy, contemplation of ideological positions, etc.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4749265#post4749265) And > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Like a roomful of monkeys. While they howl, jump around, and hurl poo, that is. is a pretty direct insult, which is also prohibited in this Forum. And THIS (post) is an official **Warning** to each of you to resist the urge to tromp over the rules in the future. * * * EVERYONE, (including **FinnAgain** ) needs to back off on all the claims that one’s opponents are being dishonest. A failure to appreciate one’s world perspective is not an act of dishonesty and all such accusations do is ratchet up the level of heat without actually moving the discussion forward. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795/242 "2007-12-09T03:02:23Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] If only someone could have made the same argument about the Taliban in Afghanistan on September 10, 2001, and saved everyone a whole lot of trouble. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] Did the Taliban goverment in Afghanistan have any idea of what was going to happen the next day?, I thought it was Al Qaeda that planned and executed the attacks. If there´s any cite saying that the Taliban leadership of Afghanistan took part on the 9/11 attacks I´d like to see it. After all Taliban =/= Al Qaeda. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795/243 "2007-12-09T03:30:53Z")
[QUOTE=Ale] Did the Taliban goverment in Afghanistan have any idea of what was going to happen the next day?, I thought it was Al Qaeda that planned and executed the attacks. If there´s any cite saying that the Taliban leadership of Afghanistan took part on the 9/11 attacks I´d like to see it. After all Taliban =/= Al Qaeda. [/QUOTE] analysis instead of denial If aQ does something, that means that the Taleban would do the same thing. If the Taleban does something, that means that Iran would do the same thing. If Iran does something, that means that Syria would do the same thing. If Syria does something, that means that Saudi Arabia would do the same thing. If Saudi Arabia does something, that means that Jordan would do the same thing. If Jordan does something, that means that Turkey would do the same thing. If Turkey does something, that means that Greece would do the same thing. Analysis: Greece is likely to attack the US. we can tell this because al Qaeda attacked the US. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795/244 "2007-12-09T04:05:31Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] EVERYONE, (including **FinnAgain** ) needs to back off on all the claims that one’s opponents are being dishonest. [/QUOTE] No problem, you’re the mod. Thank you for your even handed and fair analysis. In any case, I’ve already made my point. I think most members of the peanut gallery can determine for themselves if supporting and/or directing groups that have a specifically stated intention, history, and fanatical ideology that supports murdering Americans makes one a threat. Or if actively engaging in and/or supporting the murder of Americans is a threat even if it doesn’t have a chance of toppling or doing severe damage to the nation. At the point where posters are arguing that groups like Al Quaeda in specific aren’t or weren’t a “real” threat, I think the debate is pretty much over and a fork can be stuck in it. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795/245 "2007-12-09T04:08:22Z")
Sorry, **Tom**. The pun was too easy to pass up, and as such, was low and unnecessary. **FinnAgain’s** inadequacy speaks for itself. Whether I am right or wrong about 1984, about Argentina, or about any of the specifics of any attacks is a sideshow. I would be happy to discuss them in another context, but I still maintain that they are irrelevant to the actual substance of this issue. I do not have **FinnAgain’s** appetite nor his leisure time. The following bears repeating for a third time. > [@](#): > > ..I have specifically avoided discussing threat levels and instead only focused on intention and refuting the absurd claim that Iran is no threat… Stick a fork in **FinnAgain** : he’s done. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795/246 "2007-12-09T04:12:26Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] At the point where posters are arguing that groups like Al Quaeda in specific aren’t or weren’t a “real” threat, I think the debate is pretty much over and a fork can be stuck in it. [/QUOTE] Ha, I have to say, I did not see your post before I used the same turn of phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795/247 "2007-12-09T05:43:10Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] The claim that Iranian leaders wouldn’t be willing to sacrifice massive numbers of lives to fulfill a goal is directly contradicted by [500,000](http://www.claremont.org/blogs/blogid.4842/blog_detail.asp) plastic keys. Not only were they willing to sacrifice half a million lives just to clear mines, but they were willing to sacrifice half a million children as young as 12 years old. [/QUOTE] How many straw men have you brutally sacrificed in this debate? The rhetorical question I posed was whether the Iranian leadership would commit suicide _themselves_ by launching an attack on the US. Your “plastic keys” response (Iran using teenagers to clear minefields during the Iran-Iraq war) only proves just how much these leaders wish to hold onto their power-- which actually underscores my point. Attacking the US on its own soil would mean the destruction of Iran’s regime, and likely their own deaths. The “plastic keys” episode shows just how much they _don’t_ want that to happen. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795/248 "2007-12-09T06:12:57Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] In any case, I’ve already made my point. [/QUOTE] No, you haven’t – not in this, nor in any other MENA-related thread in which you have yet at great length posted. You would be well advised to stay out of all such in the future. You can accomplish nothing but to get your position laughed at, whatever it might be and whatever its merits. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795/249 "2007-12-09T07:37:22Z")
I thank \*\*FinnAgain \*\*for providing his unrelenting stream of text, though fragile and confused, upon which the more eloquent and erudite posters here can attach solid arguments which clearly highlight that the US reaction to Iran is greatly disproportionate to the threat. My scrolling finger may be numb, but I am all the better for it. Speaking of violation of explicit posting rules, I thought [modifying another’s post in order to cast him/her in a bad light](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9250244&postcount=212) was a breach of [these rules](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7696916). ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795/250 "2007-12-09T07:49:06Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] Bullshit. And you know it. My first post in the thread talked about the language the OP used. [/quote] Whatever. Forgive me, but you’re pretty long-winded, so it’s tough to flesh out exactly what you’re ranting about sometimes. So then what you’re telling me is that you’re not nitpicking the media for using “NIE says X” instead of “NIE finds X plausible”, but rather are nitpicking _someone on a message board_ for using “NIE says X” instead of “NIE finds X plausible”. Oh, yes - that’s a _much_ more valid complaint. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795/251 "2007-12-09T15:21:25Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] This..is a pretty direct insult, which is also prohibited in this Forum. [/quote] My apologies to anyone who has been offended by my characterization of another poster’s “arguments”, such as they are. ---
**Author:** ![Eolbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@Eolbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eolbo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795/252 "2007-12-09T15:38:54Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] How many straw men have you brutally sacrificed in this debate? The rhetorical question I posed was whether the Iranian leadership would commit suicide _themselves_ by launching an attack on the US. Your “plastic keys” response (Iran using teenagers to clear minefields during the Iran-Iraq war) only proves just how much these leaders wish to hold onto their power-- which actually underscores my point. Attacking the US on its own soil would mean the destruction of Iran’s regime, and likely their own deaths. The “plastic keys” episode shows just how much they _don’t_ want that to happen. [/QUOTE] The plastic keys is largely hyperbolic in any case. Obviously any child lost in war is a child too many and many teenagers were killed but the Iranians didnt sacrifice 500,000 children “just to clear mines”. They didnt lose that many killed in total, let alone in children, let alone in children deliberately sacrificed to clear mines. When it came down to it the Iranian republic opted out of its war with Iraq when the human cost approached in eight years about a quarter of what similarly sized European nations incurred in only four years in WW1. We can thus express Iranian fanaticism, bloodlust, and willingness to sacrifice their children as being about 1/8th the rate of European civilisation. [ > [@](#): > > Without diminishing the horror of either war, Iranian losses in the eight-year Iran-Iraq war appear modest compared with those of the European contestants in the four years of World War I, shedding some light on the limits of the Iranian tolerance for martyrdom. The war claimed at least 300,000 Iranian lives and injured more than 500,000, out of a total population which by the war’s end was nearly 60 million. During the Great War, German losses were over 1,700,000 killed and over 4,200,000 wounded [out of a total population of over 65 million]. Germany’s losses, relative to total national population, were at least five times higher than Iran. France suffered over 1,300,000 deaths and over 4,200,000 wounded. The percentages of pre-war population killed or wounded were 9% of Germany, 11% of France, and 8% of Great Britain. ]([http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/iran-iraq.htm](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/iran-iraq.htm)) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795/253 "2007-12-09T15:39:10Z")
Heck, **Elvis** , don’t feel bad about it, I didn’t know you could get away with calling other posters “liar”. Learn something every day. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795/254 "2007-12-09T15:53:15Z")
You can, but only for 5 pages. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795/255 "2007-12-09T15:55:35Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Heck, **Elvis** , don’t feel bad about it, I didn’t know you could get away with calling other posters “liar”. Learn something every day. [/QUOTE] Fortunately for some of us, some opponents do a very competent job of highlighting and emphasizing their own debate related shortcomings. As such all that is necessary is to keep giving them rope until boredom sets in (or they start crying hysterically - whichever comes 1st). For the rest, I guess the name calling is needed to… well to do something. I’m not sure what. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795/256 "2007-12-09T16:16:24Z")
Its probably proportional, like if you post 100,000 words, and six of them are offensive and insulting, then you got a rate of .0006, but if you post 100 words and one of them is offensive, you get 1%. And that’s a paddling. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795/257 "2007-12-09T16:23:07Z")
[QUOTE=antechinus] Speaking of violation of explicit posting rules, I thought [modifying another’s post in order to cast him/her in a bad light](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9250244&postcount=212) was a breach of [these rules](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7696916). [/QUOTE] ::: sigh ::: No text was modified in the quote. **Sevastopol** has, indeed, expressed a desire that Israel be eliminated on more than one occasion. In this particular instance, I would judge that based on **Sevastopol** ’s previous actions, **FinnAgain** drew a conclusion about the statement that was not fully supported by the text, but he did not modify the text. Can’t any of you folks argue the discussion without making the discussion personal? [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795/258 "2007-12-09T16:30:48Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Can’t any of you folks argue the discussion without making the discussion personal? [/Modding] [/QUOTE] No, they’re far too intellectually dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795/259 "2007-12-09T16:44:16Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] No, they’re far too intellectually dishonest. [/QUOTE] Your mom’s too intellectually dishonest! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795/260 "2007-12-09T17:06:37Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Your mom’s too intellectually dishonest! Daniel [/QUOTE] Oh yeh? Well – well – well – _Your_ mother wears intellectually dishonest Army boots! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intelligence-iran-is-not-working-on-a-bomb-but-w-says-theyre-still-a-threat/428795.md?page=14)