# U.S. intercepts capture senior Russian officials celebrating Trump win. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 6, 2017, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441 "2017-01-06T03:08:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![ganthet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441/101 "2017-01-07T00:49:26Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Back during the Bush administration, there were stories that the Bush White House doctored EPA reports to downplay the significance of / confidence in global warming. Let’s assume, for the sake of discussion, that you believe that story (although feel free to jump in here and correct me if you think it would be impossible for some high-level administration aids to modify a federal agency’s report for political purposes). Isn’t it also possible that the current Obama administration has influenced this intelligence report to play up and oversell the “Russian hacking” narrative? Or was the EPA’s “State of the Environment” report written in Cheney’s basement by a few bitter Republicans? Here’s a [news story](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/08/politics/bush-aide-softened-greenhouse-gas-links-to-global-warming.html?_r=0) that outlines the confirmed allegation that a Bush White House aide edited certain EPA reports in 2001/2002 to soften and downplay language linking greenhouse gases to global warming/climate change. That instance is completely different from this one since most of the key leaders of the intelligence agencies, including the National Director of Intelligence (who is about two weeks away from retiring and really doesn’t have much to lose at this point by caving to political pressure from a lame duck administration), the military director of the NSA, Admiral Mike Rogers, [who was being considered](http://www.wsj.com/articles/adm-michael-rogers-leading-candidate-to-be-trumps-director-of-national-intelligence-1479495306) by Trump’s people to be the next NDI, and outgoing CIA Director John Brennan, have officially affirmed their support of the report and its conclusions and (with the exception so far of Director Brennan) [have testified](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/01/05/six-big-takeaways-from-the-extraordinary-congressional-hearing-on-russian-hacking/?utm_term=.c3862df1da73) to this before Congress. Are all of these people, particularly the ones who also testified before Congress, going to risk their reputations and any possible future employment on lying or grossly exaggerating anything based on any possible fading political pressure of Obama to come to a fabricated conclusion? It would be one thing if no officials would officially confirm or testify about the report or its conclusions, but there appears to be unanimous agreement about the evidence and the conclusions they drew from the evidence from all U.S. intelligence agencies. Sen. John McCain, Sen. Lindsay Graham, and even Speaker of the House Ryan are convinced. It is unclear where this lingering, ever-persistent doubt is coming from. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441/102 "2017-01-07T00:59:51Z")
> [@ganthet](#): > > They did not fully agree as to every detail (for example, the CIA and FBI had high confidence that Putin’s goals overall in not just the hack but in other propaganda and information operations was to boost Trump and weaken/discredit Hillary while the NSA is only moderately confident that this was Putin’s goal). > [@ganthet](#): > > there appears to be unanimous agreement about the evidence and the conclusions they drew from the evidence from all U.S. intelligence agencies. These two statements by you, over the course of a couple of hours, seem to be pretty contradictory. Could you explain it a bit more to me? Is it that you think that whether the Putin’s overall goal was to install Trump in the White House or not is just a “detail”? I thought that was the entire point of this whole “Russia hacking” narrative. Note: I haven’t read the report yet, so I haven’t drawn my own conclusions. I’m just going off what you said here in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441/103 "2017-01-07T01:01:58Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Back during the Bush administration, there were stories that the Bush White House doctored EPA reports to downplay the significance of / confidence in global warming. Let’s assume, for the sake of discussion, that you believe that story (although feel free to jump in here and correct me if you think it would be impossible for some high-level administration aids to modify a federal agency’s report for political purposes). Isn’t it also possible that the current Obama administration has influenced this intelligence report to play up and oversell the “Russian hacking” narrative? Or was the EPA’s “State of the Environment” report written in Cheney’s basement by a few bitter Republicans? Well, there’s an easy test. Will all intelligence agencies suddenly reverse their judgments after January 20? If they do, you probably have a point. If they do not, what conclusion would you draw? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441/104 "2017-01-07T01:47:57Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Well, there’s an easy test. Will all intelligence agencies suddenly reverse their judgments after January 20? If they do, you probably have a point. > > If they do not, what conclusion would you draw? I don’t think the EPA “reversed” their judgements after Obama got elected, more like shaded them up a bit instead of shaded them down a bit. I wouldn’t expect the intelligence community to do a full reversal either, but in the months ahead if they de-emphasize and soften their position on Russian hacking, I’ll take it as confirmation that they’re politicized and if they don’t, I’ll be delighted to have some evidence that they’ve resisted the political influence that has infected so much of the rest of the government. ---
**Author:** ![Savannah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Savannah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Savannah)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441/105 "2017-01-07T02:08:58Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > In a declared war, no, but you don’t need to be at war to be fighting. Russia and the USA are adversaries. The fight is the same thing it has been about since the end of the WW2: geo-political influence. Russia lost a lot of theirs in the late 80s and now they want it back. The USA has been the dominate geo-political force for a long time and doesn’t want to lose it. For all of my disagreements with the US on many things, I for one, prefer to live in a world dominated by the US than Russia or China. I have much more in common with the US in terms of culture and interests than I do with Russia or China. So I’m on your side. The Russians have just discovered that your democracy, and maybe all Western democracies, can be manipulated (maybe a little bit and maybe a lot, I don’t know that’s another discussion), and this is a very dangerous thing. Unless you want to live in a world where Russia is the dominant power. I certainly don’t. I may not want to admit it, but damn, that’s pretty much my feelings. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441/106 "2017-01-07T02:24:38Z")
About a year ago a friend asked me if I though trump had a chance of being elected. I said: “Not unless he’s made a pact with Satan.” I may have been closer to the truth than I realized. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441/107 "2017-01-07T04:10:25Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > About a year ago a friend asked me if I though trump had a chance of being elected. I said: “Not unless he’s made a pact with Satan.” I may have been closer to the truth than I realized. I report into the UK. I have got endless shit since the election because I have been telling my British bosses and colleagues that Trump can’t possibly win. I offered to bet my Father in Law $10,000 Trump wouldn’t win. I was dead serious, and willing to put the money in escrow. Thank god he didn’t have the balls to take the bet. I would have paid up, but it would have been the DUMBEST financial decision I have ever made. I feel your pain. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441/108 "2017-01-07T04:44:08Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > In a declared war, no, but you don’t need to be at war to be fighting. Russia and the USA are adversaries. The fight is the same thing it has been about since the end of the WW2: geo-political influence. Russia lost a lot of theirs in the late 80s and now they want it back. The USA has been the dominate geo-political force for a long time and doesn’t want to lose it. For all of my disagreements with the US on many things, I for one, prefer to live in a world dominated by the US than Russia or China. I have much more in common with the US in terms of culture and interests than I do with Russia or China. So I’m on your side. The Russians have just discovered that your democracy, and maybe all Western democracies, can be manipulated (maybe a little bit and maybe a lot, I don’t know that’s another discussion), and this is a very dangerous thing. Unless you want to live in a world where Russia is the dominant power. I certainly don’t. Agree, and I have to add that what I fear a lot is what I pointed months ago: I do think that Trump and his goons are the kind of president and administration that will not mind to see right wingers to take over in many nations of Latin America, just like in the old old times “when America was great”. I do think that as soon as Trump takes office it will be a signal for many strongmen to make stronger efforts to undermine a lot of democracies all over the Americas and in other countries of the world under the guise of fighting terrorism, drugs, or old fashion communism (just for old timers in his administration). It is what a mentality that favors torture and authoritarianism leads one. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441/109 "2017-01-07T05:21:31Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > And I wouldn’t put it past Putin to exacerbate the Syrian civil war with the specific aim of worsening the refugee crisis in order to destabilize Turkey and the EU. > > I admit all the above is speculation- but does anyone think it’s out of the realm or reasonable? That’s flat-out _insane_. What Russia wants out of Syria is a reliable shipping route. They want access that is not controlled either by hostile nations that will support American sanctions or the vagaries of Russian winters. Exacerbating the Syrian civil war does not help them achieve that goal, because war zones make bad trade routes. You should be asking whether _the West_ is exacerbating the Syrian civil war to get back at people they don’t like. Because while Russia has a clear motive for wanting to ally themselves with Assad because they want Assad to let them use his ports, the main reason America is arming the Syrian rebels is because they want to fight a proxy war against Assad. ---
**Author:** ![ganthet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441/110 "2017-01-07T05:52:36Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > That’s flat-out _insane_. What Russia wants out of Syria is a reliable shipping route. It’s more than just economic. Russia wants to retain an ally in Syria, a continuing market for its arms, and maybe most of all establish itself as a key player in the Middle East and internationally. Its moves in Georgia, Ukraine, the Baltics and its mock bombing runs near/just inside the airspace of nearby countries and the West are about re-establishing a sphere of influence and domination and generating fear to compel respect and attention to Russian considerations and goals. > [@](#): > > You should be asking whether _the West_ is exacerbating the Syrian civil war to get back at people they don’t like. Outside of the YPG, the U.S. has provided limited arms to Syrian rebel groups and even then, would at least require a nominal pledge from the respective group that they viewed fighting Da’esh as the number one priority. The Gulf states have been far more generous in both arms and funding to the rebel groups and without any of the U.S. pledges to target Da’esh first and foremost. The U.S. would certainly like to see Assad gone, if not to see some kind of democratic state to replace him, then at least to de-couple Syria from Iran and Hizbollah (and possibly even Russia, before they became more involved). But the Gulf states and previously Turkey were much more motivated to see Assad gone than the U.S. since they see Assad as Iran’s key ally and key outpost preventing true containment in the region, outside of a very weak Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![ganthet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441/111 "2017-01-07T06:12:30Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > These two statements by you, over the course of a couple of hours, seem to be pretty contradictory. Could you explain it a bit more to me? Is it that you think that whether the Putin’s overall goal was to install Trump in the White House or not is just a “detail”? I thought that was the entire point of this whole “Russia hacking” narrative. > > Note: I haven’t read the report yet, so I haven’t drawn my own conclusions. I’m just going off what you said here in this thread. Since I’m currently using my phone, I can’t copy and paste sections of the report, but the intelligence agencies were unanimous in their assessment that Russia was behind the hacking and leaking of the materias to Wikileaks. There appears to be mild disagreement (strong confidence versus moderate confidence) about the exact goals behind the operation. If I had to guess, I would say the NSA’s moderate confidence level also considered the possibility that Russia just wanted to destabilize the election process period and might not have specifically wanted Trump to win. Even then, thy were still moderately confident that Russia undertook the hacking and leaking to help Trump and weaken Hillary. So, there appears to be strong unanimity about who was behind the hacking and leaking but somewhat less so about the goals behind it. Regardless, the point of all the hearings and the bipartisan anger on Capitol Hill has been about the hacking and leaking. Trump’s apparent view that if he acknowledged that Russia was indeed behind the hack and leak and that Russia did so to try and influence the election or destabilize the U.S. must mean his election win was illegitimate reveals a profound fragility and insecurity on his part. That would help explain his refusal to consider the probability that this was Russia and his quickness to call this unfair and try to point to other hacks. Trump was willing to see a conspiracy behind every corner before the election about possible ways a win could be stolen from him, but suddenly refuses to even consider an actual conspiracy when presented with a compelling one that he views could undermine him if he were to consider it. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441/112 "2017-01-07T06:40:04Z")
The New York Times is reporting that intelligence officials have concluded that Russia’s efforts were specifically aimed at denigrating Clinton and creating a preference for Trump. [http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/06/us/politics/russia-hack-report.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/06/us/politics/russia-hack-report.html) The fourth paragraph contains something that I find particularly disturbing. > [@](#): > > The report described a broad campaign that included covert operations, including cyberactivities and “trolling” on the internet of people who were viewed as opponents of Russia’s effort. While it accused Russian intelligence agencies of obtaining and maintaining “access to elements of multiple U.S. state or local electoral boards,” it concluded — as officials have publicly — that there was no evidence of tampering with the tallying of the vote on Nov. 8. Elements of state or local electoral boards? WTF does that mean? Electoral boards consist of people, right? Not hacked databases. This may start to get VERY interesting. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441/113 "2017-01-07T12:22:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It’s perfectly natural for the Russians to celebrate a Trump victory, just as it was perfectly natural for the Germans to celebrate Chamberlain’s tenure at Downing Street. A weak, easily manipulated leader who will be entirely ineffective in opposing their geopolitical goals is the best Christmas gift the Russians could have bought for themselves. Celebrating the outcome of an election is one thing; actively having a hand in that outcome is quite another. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441/114 "2017-01-07T12:26:01Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > That’s flat-out _insane_. What Russia wants out of Syria is a reliable shipping route. They want access that is not controlled either by hostile nations that will support American sanctions or the vagaries of Russian winters. Exacerbating the Syrian civil war does not help them achieve that goal, because war zones make bad trade routes. > > You should be asking whether _the West_ is exacerbating the Syrian civil war to get back at people they don’t like. Because while Russia has a clear motive for wanting to ally themselves with Assad because they want Assad to let them use his ports, **the main reason America is arming the Syrian rebels is because they want to fight a proxy war against Assad.** Iran also probably factors heavily. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441/115 "2017-01-07T12:36:20Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You do realize that it’s possible for one to be skeptical of the CIA’s evidence-free assertion without actually swearing allegiance to Russia, right? One could even still dislike Russia / Putin, and choose to not have blind faith in the intelligence community’s every assertion. Practically every single intelligence gathering agency has formed a consensus on this issue. What is it that you know that somehow people who spend 10 hours or more per day investigating this don’t? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441/116 "2017-01-07T16:25:38Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > The Republican opinion of Putin’s Russia is giving me whiplash. It works both ways. Four years ago, in the debates, Obama MOCKED Romney for saying Russia was our enemy. Today, Democrats have turned into Russophobia. So, was Romney right and Obama wrong to begin with? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441/117 "2017-01-07T16:43:39Z")
IIRC that had more to do with a response about our greatest threat. As it turns out, having a Russian puppet as President might actually make Russia our greatest threat. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441/118 "2017-01-07T16:55:58Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > It works both ways. Four years ago, in the debates, Obama MOCKED Romney for saying Russia was our enemy. > > Today, Democrats have turned into Russophobia. So, was Romney right and Obama wrong to begin with? No they didn’t. They disagreed with him saying Russia was our number 1 foreign policy foe. Which still isn’t true, btw. They’re getting a lot of press now, but Russia isn’t challenging American global dominance anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441/119 "2017-01-07T17:05:12Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > No they didn’t. They disagreed with him saying Russia was our number 1 foreign policy foe. > > Which still isn’t true, btw. They’re getting a lot of press now, but Russia isn’t challenging American global dominance anytime soon. Well, they are if they can drag us down to their level, which appears very possible. Did the report have anything about hacking of members of the RNC? Early reports were that the RNC was hacked, but information not released. Is that still the prevailing view? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441/120 "2017-01-07T17:19:43Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Agree, and I have to add that what I fear a lot is what I pointed months ago: I do think that Trump and his goons are the kind of president and administration that will not mind to see right wingers to take over in many nations of Latin America, just like in the old old times “when America was great”. > > I do think that as soon as Trump takes office it will be a signal for many strongmen to make stronger efforts to undermine a lot of democracies all over the Americas and in other countries of the world under the guise of fighting terrorism, drugs, or old fashion communism (just for old timers in his administration). > > It is what a mentality that favors torture and authoritarianism leads one. Oh it’s not just in Latin America. Look at Duterte in the Philippines who makes Trump look like a pussy cat or some of those right-wing Europeans who are just waiting to take over. The white working classes in wealthy countries are upset about being ignored and they’re having a temper tantrum. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-intercepts-capture-senior-russian-officials-celebrating-trump-win/776441.md?page=7)