# U.S. judges admit to jailing children for money **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-judges-admit-to-jailing-children-for-money/485644 "2009-02-13T03:16:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-judges-admit-to-jailing-children-for-money/485644/1 "2009-02-13T03:16:38Z")
[http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090213/od\_uk\_nm/oukoe\_uk\_crime\_usa\_judges](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090213/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_crime_usa_judges) > [@](#): > > Judges Mark Ciavarella and Michael Conahan of the Court of Common Pleas in Luzerne County, Pennsylvania, entered plea agreements in federal court in Scranton admitting that they took payoffs from PA Childcare and a sister company, Western PA Childcare, between 2003 and 2006. > > “Your statement that I have disgraced my judgeship is true,” Ciavarella wrote in a letter to the court. “My actions have destroyed everything I worked to accomplish and I have only myself to blame.” > > Conahan, who along with Ciavarella faces up to seven years in prison, did not make any comment on the case. > > When someone is sent to a detention centre, the company running the facility receives money from the county government to defray the cost of incarceration. So as more children were sentenced to the detention centre, PA Childcare and Western PA Childcare received more money from the government, prosecutors said. > > Teenagers who came before Ciavarella in juvenile court often were sentenced to detention centres for minor offences that would typically have been classified as misdemeanours, according to the Juvenile Law Centre, a Philadelphia nonprofit group. Is this an isolated incident or are there more of these type of situations currently in existance? ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-judges-admit-to-jailing-children-for-money/485644/2 "2009-02-13T03:20:38Z")
I think this is not an isolated incident, but hey, at least there was some motivation for the harsh sentences other than racism or sadism. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-judges-admit-to-jailing-children-for-money/485644/3 "2009-02-13T03:32:43Z")
The Great Invisible Hand will work it out. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-judges-admit-to-jailing-children-for-money/485644/4 "2009-02-13T08:57:37Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > The Great Invisible Hand will work it out. I’m happy to see such relevant commentary. I wouldn’t exactly call the legal system busting these guys an “invisible hand” though. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-judges-admit-to-jailing-children-for-money/485644/5 "2009-02-13T10:22:04Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > I’m happy to see such relevant commentary. It’s relevant because this sort of thing is exactly what people who oppose the drive to privatize everything said would happen. And claiming that the magic invisible hand of the marketplace would fix everything is the standard response. So yes, it’s relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Turek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turek/32/18782_2.png) [@Turek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turek)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-judges-admit-to-jailing-children-for-money/485644/6 "2009-02-13T13:47:13Z")
[Pit thread, in case you feel like cussing about it.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=506189) ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-judges-admit-to-jailing-children-for-money/485644/7 "2009-02-13T14:19:09Z")
So, can the children unjustly sentenced by these judges sue: (1) the judges; (2) the county (since the judges were county officials); (3) the company that ran the prison? And if so, how much can they get in damages, at least for the time unjustly incarcerated? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-judges-admit-to-jailing-children-for-money/485644/8 "2009-02-13T14:53:09Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Is this an isolated incident or are there more of these type of situations currently in existance? Generally speaking, companies try to earn the largest possible amount of money. If they can earn money by influencing judges to make longer sentences, they’ll do that. Hence I’d expect that if there are many for-profit jails\* out there, a sizable percentage of them are doing things like this. \*“Detention center” is a stupid euphanism. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-judges-admit-to-jailing-children-for-money/485644/9 "2009-02-13T15:07:57Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s relevant because this sort of thing is exactly what people who oppose the drive to privatize everything said would happen. And claiming that the magic invisible hand of the marketplace would fix everything is the standard response. So yes, it’s relevant. Relevant? It’s a headshot, killing the Invisible Hand argument deader than JFK. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-judges-admit-to-jailing-children-for-money/485644/10 "2009-02-13T15:13:24Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > \*“Detention center” is a stupid euphanism. Wasnt there a thread not too long ago where someones local jail/prison was called something that sounded more like job training/vocational/career center? IIRC from the name you would have never thought it was a jail/prison. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_In_Black)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-judges-admit-to-jailing-children-for-money/485644/11 "2009-02-13T20:07:05Z")
This is my county. It is strange to see it being talked about here. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-judges-admit-to-jailing-children-for-money/485644/12 "2009-02-13T20:41:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s relevant because this sort of thing is exactly what people who oppose the drive to privatize everything said would happen. And claiming that the magic invisible hand of the marketplace would fix everything is the standard response. So yes, it’s relevant. People won’t try to break the law for monetary gain under a socialist order? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-judges-admit-to-jailing-children-for-money/485644/13 "2009-02-13T20:59:38Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > People won’t try to break the law for monetary gain under a socialist order? Of course they will. In this particular case though, if the jail had been run by a public body, serving the public interest, there would have been no motive (ie profit) to convince the judges to give longer sentences. For-profit private organizations are incredibly useful and valuable to our society. They are not necessarily the best solution for how we run all parts of our society however. This example shows that for-profit prisons may not be the greatest idea, since the motivators for the company (get more people into our jail, no matter what!) may not be to the ultimate benefit of our society. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-judges-admit-to-jailing-children-for-money/485644/14 "2009-02-13T21:17:51Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Of course they will. > > In this particular case though, if the jail had been run by a public body, serving the public interest, there would have been no motive (ie profit) to convince the judges to give longer sentences. > > For-profit private organizations are incredibly useful and valuable to our society. They are not necessarily the best solution for how we run all parts of our society however. This example shows that for-profit prisons may not be the greatest idea, since the motivators for the company (get more people into our jail, no matter what!) may not be to the ultimate benefit of our society. Complete nonsense. The jail is paid based on how many people are inside. How would a government run jail be paid? Exactly the same way, by exactly the same government. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-judges-admit-to-jailing-children-for-money/485644/15 "2009-02-13T21:25:49Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Complete nonsense. The jail is paid based on how many people are inside. How would a government run jail be paid? Exactly the same way, by exactly the same government. But their motive isn’t profit. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-judges-admit-to-jailing-children-for-money/485644/16 "2009-02-13T23:22:50Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Complete nonsense. The jail is paid based on how many people are inside. How would a government run jail be paid? Exactly the same way, by exactly the same government. ??? Are we reading the same thread? In this case, the For-Profit company that ran the jails had every incentive to increase the number of juveniles in the jail. They made more money if there were more kids in jail. Therefore they convinced judges to send more kids to jail. = more profit for the company. = more money for the owners of the company. = nicer cars and bigger houses for the owners. If the jail were run by the government, of course the money would come from the same place. However, the people that run the jail would have no incentive to get more (undeserving) people into their jail, because this would not make their paycheques get bigger. There is no profit/prisoner motive going on. I think this logically holds together, does it not? ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-judges-admit-to-jailing-children-for-money/485644/17 "2009-02-14T00:58:12Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Relevant? It’s a headshot, killing the Invisible Hand argument deader than JFK. People will see what they want to see. This is a case of government doling out business by fiat. It is emphatically not a case of “invisible hand” doing anything. Government can’t do everything: at some point, it’s going to have to purchase goods and/or services from private businesses (if it doesn’t hire one to run it’s jails, it will have to hire one to provide uniforms, kitchen supplies, etc.). At the point of public/private interaction, there is going to be some risk of corruption, for which \*\*all \*\*parties are culpable. However, using a case of breathtaking government corruption as an occasion to to mock free market advocates is clearly misplaced. Anyway, hiring private companies to run detention centers may be sub-optimal, but for reasons that don’t necessarily apply to other cases of privatization: by privatizing this particular function, government corruption has the potential to be uniquely monstrous. ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-judges-admit-to-jailing-children-for-money/485644/18 "2009-02-14T05:09:34Z")
> [@The\_Man\_In\_Black](#): > > This is my county. It is strange to see it being talked about here. My family is from there too. Seems like all the national news from the area relates to prisons. The last one story was about the guy that broke himself out of prison.