# U.S. Law - can you be forced to give a password to your computer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 7, 2010, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337 "2010-10-07T05:08:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337/21 "2010-10-07T18:58:31Z")
Most any safe can be opened given the right combination of power tools, effort, locksmith knowhow, and search warrant paperwork. So an encrypted hard drive vs. a safe is a little different situation. ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337/22 "2010-10-07T19:36:50Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Can we take the technology angle out of the picture and ask an analogous question? I am suspected of a crime. The police have a search warrant. I have a locked safe in the basement. The police wonder if there might be evidence in it. Can they compel me to give them the combination? Or is that a violation of 5A? This made me think of all the cop dramas (everthing you need to know about law comes right from there, of course) where they have the guy and are yelling, “Where’s the body/money/missing person?!” It seems to me that knowing where the stolen jewels are makes you look kind of guilty. Can they only do that if you’ve already been arrested? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337/23 "2010-10-07T19:59:43Z")
Indeed, Truecrypt gives you a “plausible deniability” option. You can create a second, hidden drive inside your Truecrypt volume, which requires a second password to unlock. Without that password, the system gives no indication the drive is there. So you could reluctantly “unlock” the Truecrypt drive, and then simply deny that you used that second drive option… and there’ s no way to know otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337/24 "2010-10-07T20:19:59Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I always thought that if you were going to keep dodgy stuff on your computer, that you should always have a program loaded that would essentially slag the data so it could not be retrieved … so if it looked like you were going to get caught you could simply slag it. Couldn’t that backfire against you in a trial, though ? Obviously not in a direct “this is against the law” way, but I could clearly see a lawyer milking “where there’s smoke there’s fire” for all it’s worth for the benefit of the stupid jury. After all, if you had nothing to hide, you wouldn’t have nuked your drives, hmmm ? ---
**Author:** ![Gedd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gedd/32/4938_2.png) [@Gedd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gedd)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337/25 "2010-10-07T20:53:31Z")
I made a deal with a friend, when I die his first job is to delete my hardrive. Or simple take the computer out back and beat it with a baseball bat. ---
**Author:** ![AmunRa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AmunRa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmunRa)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337/26 "2010-10-07T21:06:03Z")
> [@Gedd](#): > > Or simple take the computer out back and beat it with a baseball bat. Stick with this option, these days it isn’t hard at all for a curious person to recover deleted files, unless your friend knows what he is doing to prevent it. I would still like to hear from the lawyers their opinion on whether “forgetting” the password is likely to get you thrown in jail. No need to get specific, but is there a. nothing the cops can do except threaten you, b. you might get locked up for a few weeks for contempt of court, or c. they will throw your ass in jail forever, or until you fess up and hand over the password(or if you are smart pass phrase)? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337/27 "2010-10-07T21:27:00Z")
> [@Gedd](#): > > I made a deal with a friend, when I die his first job is to delete my hardrive. > > Or simple take the computer out back and beat it with a baseball bat. Burn it. Scatter the ashes. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337/28 "2010-10-08T00:23:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Indeed, Truecrypt gives you a “plausible deniability” option. > > You can create a second, hidden drive inside your Truecrypt volume, which requires a second password to unlock. Without that password, the system gives no indication the drive is there. > > So you could reluctantly “unlock” the Truecrypt drive, and then simply deny that you used that second drive option… and there’ s no way to know otherwise. Couldn’t you tell just by looking at drive capacity, and comparing to the total size of the files on your hard drive? e.g. I have a 500 GB drive, and the police only see 400 GB worth of data? ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337/29 "2010-10-08T00:52:47Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > Indeed, Truecrypt gives you a “plausible deniability” option. > > > > You can create a second, hidden drive inside your Truecrypt volume, which requires a second password to unlock. Without that password, the system gives no indication the drive is there. > > > > So you could reluctantly “unlock” the Truecrypt drive, and then simply deny that you used that second drive option… and there’ s no way to know otherwise. > > Couldn’t you tell just by looking at drive capacity, and comparing to the total size of the files on your hard drive? e.g. I have a 500 GB drive, and the police only see 400 GB worth of data? No, TrueCrypt writes random data to free space on your encrypted volume. The “hidden” drive is in the purported free space of the outer drive, and the hidden data is indistinguishable from random data (short of having the password). At least according to the documentation. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337/30 "2010-10-08T01:30:15Z")
> [@thirdname](#): > > The police could break into his house, and install a keylogger (a physical device in the keyboard or computer) to get the password. I don’t know if that’s common in ordinary criminal cases though. But unless they had a warrant to get into your house in the first place, any evidence found by this keylogger is tainted and would be thrown out in court. Of course, there are ways cops can do this: - get a warrant - break in carefully, so there is no indication left of a break-in - install the keylogger - leave a copy of the warrant behind, as required (but leave it in a place that is obvious but likely to be overlooked) Also, if a keylogger had been installed to get the password without the defendant’s knowledge, they might not know to challenge the tainted evidence gained from that. They might think it had been obtained by cracking the encryption after the cops had seized their computer post-arrest. ---
**Author:** ![AmunRa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AmunRa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmunRa)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337/31 "2010-10-08T02:21:54Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > No, TrueCrypt writes random data to free space on your encrypted volume. The “hidden” drive is in the purported free space of the outer drive, and the hidden data is indistinguishable from random data (short of having the password). At least according to the documentation. And to be clear Truecrypt _will_ let you overwrite the hidden volumes’s data if you don’t supply the hidden volume’s passphrase. If you want to know how it works just go to Truecrypt’s site, they explain it all in pretty easy to understand terms. As long as you follow the practices they lay out no one will(should anyway) be able to prove that the hidden volume exists. ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337/32 "2010-10-08T03:24:50Z")
> [@DxZero](#): > > > [@Walton\_Firm](#): > > > > If they don’t believe you, you’re going to have a _looooong_ time, and a strong motivation, to try and remember it. If you really forgot it: sucks to be you. > > There’s very few encryption programs out there that can’t be cracked with the proper know-how and motivation. Most major police departments have a computer crimes department that specializes in this sort of thing. Smaller police departments can send the hard-drive to their state police to crack and there is always the FBI. I don’t think it much matters if you remember the password or not. They’ll get in. I am not an expert on cryptology but as I understand things, this is not true. modern encryption algorithms are very difficult to crack. The key is a real password. If you use your dog’s eight letter name, it would be open in a few seconds. But a real password, which very few of us use, makes it very very difficult to crack. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337/33 "2010-10-08T04:21:32Z")
Can’t the police use spy stuff to check out what you’re viewing on your computer monitor remotely, without ever entering your residence? Would evidence collected thereby be admissible? ---
**Author:** ![GiantRat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@GiantRat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GiantRat)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337/34 "2010-10-08T04:44:29Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > > [@DxZero](#): > > > > I am a lawyer, but this isn’t my specialty per se, but I’d be hard-pressed not to find that a violation of Fifth amendment by the police. The defendant is being required to supply evidence against themselves. Any evidence obtained from that search would be inadmissible. > > Can we take the technology angle out of the picture and ask an analogous question? I am suspected of a crime. The police have a search warrant. I have a locked safe in the basement. The police wonder if there might be evidence in it. Can they compel me to give them the combination? Or is that a violation of 5A? Heh. They can order you to do anything they like (such as “throw down that gun!”). When I worked in law enforcement, we had a safe that the guys were “sure” had drugs, money, notebooks, or something. Our in-house safecracking “specialist” couldn’t get it open (and it was a very old safe), so we called in outsiders. They got it open after a few days in the garage (the thing weighed about 500 lbs). There wasn’t jack shit in there. But, to the OP - you can compel someone to give you passwords. You can’t compel them to “remember what it is…” ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337/35 "2010-10-08T04:52:32Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Can’t the police use spy stuff to check out what you’re viewing on your computer monitor remotely, without ever entering your residence? Would evidence collected thereby be admissible? No. To do it remotely, they are accessing your machine via your internet connection. Legally, that is a variety of wiretapping. So unless they got a warrant for that, any evidence they got that way is tainted and can’t be used in court. ---
**Author:** ![Slightly\_mad\_scientist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ba8739/32.png) [@Slightly\_mad\_scientist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slightly_mad_scientist)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337/36 "2010-10-08T06:22:20Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Can’t the police use spy stuff to check out what you’re viewing on your computer monitor remotely, without ever entering your residence? Would evidence collected thereby be admissible? They could use [Van Eck Phreaking](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Eck_phreaking) to watch from the outside what is on your monitor. Although AFAIK it is much harder with the new TFTs than with the older CRTs. In Germany there is also some discussion about the “Bundestrojaner” (“Federal Trojan”), which is meant to be installed by Police/Intelligence agencies onto the computers of terror suspects and should log the passwords, so that the police later can break the encryption. I don’t know what is legal, but I would guess that anything without a warrant is probably inadmissable. ---
**Author:** ![AmunRa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AmunRa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmunRa)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337/37 "2010-10-08T06:47:50Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > > [@Koxinga](#): > > > > Can’t the police use spy stuff to check out what you’re viewing on your computer monitor remotely, without ever entering your residence? Would evidence collected thereby be admissible? > > No. To do it remotely, they are accessing your machine via your internet connection. Legally, that is a variety of wiretapping. So unless they got a warrant for that, any evidence they got that way is tainted and can’t be used in court. Not to mention the fact that unless they are _only_ interested in your internet traffic they would need to compromise your system with some kind of trojan. Depending on your computer’s configuration and your personal security practices they may or may not be able to do get a trojan on your computer remotely, although the sort of person who is using strong encryption properly is far more likely to be better protected IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337/38 "2010-10-08T07:02:44Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > No. To do it remotely, they are accessing your machine via your internet connection. No, that’s not what I’m talking about – [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Eck_phreaking) is what I’m talking about, apparently something called “Van Eck phreaking.” (I’m not sure if this is something that’s actually used by the FBI or police or if it could only potentially be another tool for them.) ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337/39 "2010-10-08T09:57:28Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > > [@thirdname](#): > > > > The police could break into his house, and install a keylogger (a physical device in the keyboard or computer) to get the password. I don’t know if that’s common in ordinary criminal cases though. > > But unless they had a warrant to get into your house in the first place, any evidence found by this keylogger is tainted and would be thrown out in court. > > Of course, there are ways cops can do this: > > - get a warrant > - break in carefully, so there is no indication left of a break-in > - install the keylogger > - leave a copy of the warrant behind, as required (but leave it in a place that is obvious but likely to be overlooked) > > Also, if a keylogger had been installed to get the password without the defendant’s knowledge, they might not know to challenge the tainted evidence gained from that. They might think it had been obtained by cracking the encryption after the cops had seized their computer post-arrest. Can a keylogger pick up what is typed using one of those onscreen mouse keyboard clicky things? [Runes of Magic has you put your PW in by clicking a virtual keyboard onscreen] ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2010, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337/40 "2010-10-08T10:03:07Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > > [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > > > But unless they had a warrant to get into your house in the first place, any evidence found by this keylogger is tainted and would be thrown out in court. > > > > Of course, there are ways cops can do this: > > > > - get a warrant > > - break in carefully, so there is no indication left of a break-in > > - install the keylogger > > - leave a copy of the warrant behind, as required (but leave it in a place that is obvious but likely to be overlooked) > > > > Also, if a keylogger had been installed to get the password without the defendant’s knowledge, they might not know to challenge the tainted evidence gained from that. They might think it had been obtained by cracking the encryption after the cops had seized their computer post-arrest. > > Can a keylogger pick up what is typed using one of those onscreen mouse keyboard clicky things? [Runes of Magic has you put your PW in by clicking a virtual keyboard onscreen] Yes, there are keylogger systems that can capture that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-law-can-you-be-forced-to-give-a-password-to-your-computer/556337.md?page=3)