# U.S. Men's Basketball gets ass handed to them by Puerto Rico. How cool is that? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 15, 2004, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976 "2004-08-15T19:11:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976/61 "2004-08-19T14:55:43Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > It isn’t just the Americans who are too lazy or self-centered to show up. Vlade Divac and Peta Stojakovic of Serbia blew off the Olympics, too. They know how pointless the whole exercise is, too. And like most NBA players, they’d rather have a few weeks vacation than take part in unimportant exhibition play. Well, there you go, it’s not just the Americans. I guess it’s NBA hubris, not American national hubris. But i don’t think this changes my point. The only reason that the Olympics might be considered “unimportant exhibition play” is that these NBA players don’t turn up. If they decide not to go because they don’t think the event is important enough, they _create_ the very conditions that they are complaining about. > [@astorian](#): > > And there’s a flip side to your argument. If American refusal to take the Olympics all that seriously is “hubris,” what do you think of the foreign players who’ve been so dominant in international play but have had utterly mediocre careers in the NBA? Why have none of the Italians or Puerto Ricans who manhandled the U.S. team in the past few weeks done anything noteworthy in the NBA (if, indeed, they ever made it to the NBA at all)? > > Are they too “lazy” or filled with “hubris” to give their all in the NBA? That’s not a “flip side” at all. It’s a completely different issue. Maybe those players aren’t good enough to make the NBA, or maybe they are good enough to make it, but not good enough to be a real star in it. Much as i rejoiced in the US team’s loss the other day, i’m not naive enough to believe that any other country could beat the US if the Americans did field the best possible team. There’s absolutely no doubt that the quality of play in the US is head and shoulders above the rest of the world. But the only way to increase the quality the world over is to give the lesser countries an opportunity to play against the best. That principle has been recognized by plenty of other sports, inside and outside the Olympics. No-one gives the United States or Japan any realistic chance of winning the Rugby World Cup, but i’m willing to bet that the US and Japanese players wouldn’t see their participation as pointless. Similarly, The Netherlands were never going to provide any real challenge in last year’s Cricket World Cup, but i’m sure they relished the chance to play against the best in the world. You say that the winners of Olympic Gold in basketball cannot say they’re the best team in the world, but when the US refuses to send its best team this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If America sent its best team, and they won, then the winner of gold _would_ be the world’s best team. And if they got beaten, we might could reasonably say that whoever beat them is the best team. Simple, really. Look, i’m not even much of a basketball fan, and it wouldn’t worry me too much if it got dropped from the Olympics. But one reason i do like it is that, as other people in this thread have pointed out, the referees sometimes actually seem willing to call things like travelling. When i first moved to the US and watched a few NBA games, i was aghast that basic rules that i had played under as a kid were so openly and obviously flaunted. With all the travelling in the NBA, sometimes i wonder why they bother bouncing the ball at all. Maybe if they have to play in a competition where the rules of the game are actually enforced, it will encourage similar standards among NBA players. But i’m not holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976/62 "2004-08-19T15:01:14Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Maybe if they have to play in a competition where the rules of the game are actually enforced… …we’ll discover they’re not as good as we previously thought. ---
**Author:** ![Mullinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@Mullinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mullinator)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976/63 "2004-08-19T15:26:07Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > …we’ll discover they’re not as good as we previously thought. Perhaps not at this style of play. Put the foreign teams in an NBA style, and they would be destroyed. The Americans are pretty darn average in the Olympics now, and while it is fun to rant about, the blame is the system in America that’s set up. The goal of a kid playing ball is to make it to the NBA. Thus, they play with others with the same goal. They play for coaches and in leagues that learn lessons passed down from higher level coaches, all of whom end up preaching an NBA style because in the NBA, that’s what works. I’ll be the first to say that the style is close to unwatchable at this point with the isolation plays, inability to convert a simple fast break, mugging defenses that stifle offensive flow, refereeing that is subpar and allows way too much in the context of the rule. But, to say they are not as good as we thought is faulty. It’s just that different rules (wider lanes, allowable defenses, court measurement, foul limits, goal tending, referee differences, etc) means that while the players are exceptional at NBA style basketball after years of striving toward perfecting that system, they are average in international basketball after days of being in that system. If the NBA shifted to a more NBA/international hybrid that led to increased reliance on the outside shot and deft perimeter passing (international style) which would serve to keep the lane open for strong drives and inside play (NBA style) I would be quite the happy camper. But, considering the time that will take to take hold, I wouldn’t expect any change in our Olympic results until 2016. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2004, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976/64 "2004-08-22T18:15:55Z")
Hehe no bump? ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976/65 "2004-08-23T02:45:29Z")
I was just over at Google News and noticed [this little article](http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/sullivan/20040822-9999-lz1x22sulliv.html). The Dream Team just lost another game to Lithuania (94 to 90). I don’t follow basketball much - are there (m)any NBA players on the Lithuanian team? I know there were at least a few on the Puerto Rican team. Prior to this Olympics, the USA had only ever lost two Olympic basketball games. Now they’ve lost two in _this_ games. ---
**Author:** ![Geobabe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/geobabe/32/3908_2.png) [@Geobabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geobabe)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976/66 "2004-08-23T04:27:35Z")
The US men actually played their best game yet; Lithuania was just better, and it was a team they were expected to have trouble with. So despite the loss, I’m feeling rather encouraged. Poor Larry Brown, having to teach these guys who have been playing in the NBA for years fundamentals of the game, but it seems to have sunk in a bit, finally. They started looking alive on defense and showing a much better attitude. If they could develop a little outside shooting, they might have a chance. As far as Lithuanian NBA players, Darius Songaila plays for Sacramento. Sarunas Jasikevicius went to Maryland and apparently wanted to play in the NBA but didn’t get drafted–it sounded from what the commentators were saying that he’s still a little bitter about that, but he’s really had the chance to shine on his national team. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2004, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976/67 "2004-08-23T12:43:02Z")
Meh. It was close. The Lithuanians hit a few lucky shots (how did that three to set up the four point play go in?) towards the end, but I think they deserved to win. Good for them. ---
**Author:** ![Geobabe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/geobabe/32/3908_2.png) [@Geobabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geobabe)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976/68 "2004-08-25T13:57:17Z")
Just when I was starting to have some sympathy for the men’s team, Stephon Marbury comes out with this gem while being interviewed during the women’s game today: “[The women are] not as athletic, they don’t have the same flash, so they have no choice but to play as a team.” 😕 :mad: :smack: Hey, asshole, that’s how you’re SUPPOSED TO PLAY. The entire rest of the fucking world understands that, and that’s why you are going to get your ass handed to you during the medal round. The men did play a good game against Lithuania, and I thought maybe they were starting to grasp that whole “basketball” concept. Then they turned in this totally half-assed performance against Angola–sure, it was a team they weren’t expected to have any trouble with, but once again, they should have been paying attention to the women, who are going out and _playing_ every game no matter the opponent, because they understand that it’s an opportunity to solidify their team play. Every game is a clinic. Oh, that’s right, they only do that because they don’t have anything else going for them. Really, I’m having a hard time thinking of a more moronic and assholish thing for Marbury to have said. Nothing could have pointed out more clearly that he still doesn’t get it, and most likely, neither do his teammates. I wanted to be able to root for them, but now I really can’t. Have fun getting humiliated, assholes. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976/69 "2004-08-25T15:19:27Z")
Jeez… that was a stupid thing to think, never mind say… Lessee… next game: vs. Spain (5-0), single elimination for passing to the medal round. If they survive that, vs. the winner of the ARG/GRE elimination, to make it to the Gold game. So they’ll have to work for it in every game, which in any case makes for a better competition. BTW in defense of T-USA’s performance vs. Angola, in the final regular-round games they weren’t the only ones who slacked it in order to “save themselves” for the elimination round. All PUR needed to do to remain 2d seed in Group B was make a _12 point spread_ and instead they lost by 20, missing 3-pointers and jumpers like they were the American team. But it meant they rested their top guys and gave some board time to the bench. GRE blowing out PUR, when PUR had done the same to USA, meant PUR went to #3 and USA to #4. Had PUR won or made the spread, then USA would have been #3 and GRE #4. …of course, the more conspiratorially minded pointed out, having USA fall to 4th seed means the USA gets to play Spain in the elimination round, thus guaranteeing the fast elimination of another of the tournament Great Powers, while all the other 3-2 teams get to play one another. But I find it more likely that it was a matter that the _Greeks_ decided _they_ did not want to go vs. SPA so they did what they had to in order to beat us AND the spread; while we already knew we would be facing one or another gnocchi-fed team anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976/70 "2004-08-25T18:44:41Z")
[LeBron James victim of Lisa Fernandez drive-by!](http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/myrtlebeachonline/sports/special_packages/olympics/9469180.htm) > [@](#): > > Fernandez is the heart of it all. She hits. She pitches. She plays defense. On Saturday at age 33, she threw a 7-inning, three-hit shutout against Australia to catapult the United States into Monday’s gold medal match. She also had the game-winning hit. She also tried to pass along all the credit to her teammates. > > That’s a great quality in a sports role model. Modesty. > > Of course, it’s also important that the athlete is clean; nothing can ruin a good role model faster than a positive drug test. There should be no worries there: Not only is Fernandez spotless, but there has never been a single positive drug test in the history of the International Softball Federation. So that’s good. > > A role model should have a sense of humor. Fernandez fits. Sunday, she was asked about basketball star LeBron James’ ludicrous comment that he could get a hit off American softball star Jennie Finch. No one would have blamed Fernandez if she had something biting like, “You know, I was watching the men’s basketball team play and LeBron might want to concentrate on HIS sport for a while.” > > Instead, she just laughed. > > “I’ve seen him play, he can’t even hit SLOW PITCH,” she said. “So I’m not sure why LeBron James would think he could hit Jennie Finch or any other fast-pitch pitcher out there. He needs to start out with a tee and elevate his game from there.” > > Pretty funny stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976/71 "2004-08-26T14:22:27Z")
Down goes España! Down goes España! On to (most likely) Argentina. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976/72 "2004-08-26T14:29:47Z")
Marbury was looking nice. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976/73 "2004-08-26T14:47:14Z")
Now _that_ was a game. Team USA, in spite of all, IS a group of highly talented and fit players. If _as finally configured_ they had the chance for a longer training/exhibition season in which to “get it”, they would have looked much better in the first round (and why do I get this feeling that if the 1st-game rout had been vs. LTU instead of PUR, people would not have been SO upset?) ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976/74 "2004-08-26T14:54:04Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Marbury was looking nice. Yeah, too bad. It was great fun reminding my Knicks fan friends he had a max contract. ---
**Author:** ![Mullinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@Mullinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mullinator)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976/75 "2004-08-26T15:38:06Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > Yeah, too bad. It was great fun reminding my Knicks fan friends he had a max contract. Eh, he’s a career 31.5% 3 point shooter so feel free to revel in the long-term Knickitude of Marbury. Or, just keep reminding them that everything Isiah Thomas touches turns to crap. Sure, he’s made a bundle of trades, but it sure seems like he is basically trading current salary difficulties for future salary difficulties, all while continuing to flounder for a low playoff spot. As for the US team, it appears clear that one of the issues they have to face, and probably couldn’t overcome with months of practice, are fouls. The stuff they can do on defense in the NBA is called a bit more in the international game. Fouls put good players (Tim Duncan) on the bench for extended stretches all while handcuffing players on the floor from playing a style they are used to. Of course, I think the grab and hold, bump and clog defense in the NBA is abysmal. And who do we have to thank for that? Oh yeah, the late 80’s Pistons and Riley’s untalented but bruising Knicks. It all comes back to the crapfest that is the Knicks. Circle of life. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976/76 "2004-08-26T16:06:10Z")
Yeah, I was reading a column that had guys like Nash, Divac, etc. talking about how fouls are called in the international game and they basically said it’s the opposite of how things are called in the US. You can apparently get away with murder on the perimeter, but inside the paint they’re watching a lot more carefully. In the NBA, it’s the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976/77 "2004-08-26T16:10:24Z")
> [@Mullinator](#): > > Or, just keep reminding them that everything Isiah Thomas touches turns to crap. Sure, he’s made a bundle of trades, but it sure seems like he is basically trading current salary difficulties for future salary difficulties, all while continuing to flounder for a low playoff spot. Jamal Crawford is the final piece they needed. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976/78 "2004-08-26T17:08:52Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Jamal Crawford is the final piece they needed. :rolleyes: Final piece they need to do what? Remain non-competitive for the rest of the decade? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mullinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@Mullinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mullinator)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976/79 "2004-08-26T18:47:55Z")
Well he did elevate the play of the Bulls to a whole new level. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2004, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976/80 "2004-08-26T19:15:18Z")
> [@Mullinator](#): > > Well he did elevate the play of the Bulls to a whole new level. _Next_ to last on the ESPN power rankings? Now that he’s a Knick something bad will happen to him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-mens-basketball-gets-ass-handed-to-them-by-puerto-rico-how-cool-is-that/259976.md?page=5)