# U.S. Military cheats at war games. Surprise, surprise. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 13, 2002, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-military-cheats-at-war-games-surprise-surprise/128265 "2002-09-13T12:29:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-military-cheats-at-war-games-surprise-surprise/128265/61 "2003-01-21T06:35:03Z")
**owl** , yea, the simulation itself was flawed because it was designed by the people Van Riper ended up beating. That’s part of the problem Van Riper should be helping us to solve. Have you ever read the novel _Ender’s Game_ by Orson Scott Card? It’s relevant here in a few ways. I’ll take the liberty of discussing a bit of it and revealing nonessential plot points. I won’t use the spoiler tags because I won’t give away any spoilers (I hope). The novel is based around selecting young geniuses to lead the forces of Earth against an alien menace. They are all shipped up to Battle School, a huge complex dug into the asteroid Eros, to play games that simulate small-scale infantry combat in zero-gravity rooms. The games obviously do not reflect the war against the aliens the high command has planned, but they do develop tactical thinking in the students and train them to work in combat as a team. Ender is one of the best, not the _very_ brightest but certainly the best leader. He goes into Battle School and he bends the rules with unorthodox tactics: He has his soldiers wound themselves so disabled limbs can be used as shields, for example, and he deliberately rejects the estabilshed system of near-Napoleonic regimentation that had pervaded the groups. The details, of course, don’t matter: He sees the game for what it is and breaks down the established norms to teach himself and others the important lessons. What are those lessons? Think like your enemy. Tailor your tactics to the realities, not the theories, and never mistake conventions for rules. Van Riper, like Ender, bent the rules of the game so far he almost (or almost certainly) broke them, but _the game really isn’t important_. By doing something so unexpected the military had no response, he proved to them that they desperately need change. What did the military do? Whined at Van Riper for cheating (which he did, of course, not that it matters) and went back to its old routine. Maybe they changed the game. Maybe cheating in a wargame is now a court-martial offense. Doesn’t matter. They took the real test and they failed. Van Riper has seen this before. He is a Vietnam veteran, someone who gained combat experience against another foe who cheated left and right. Creating tiger traps lined with sharp sticks smeared with human excrement just isn’t done in the West, but the VC didn’t have a problem with that. Hiding a military force in a densely-packed civilian population coming into Saigon to celebrate the Lunar New Year (Tet in Vietnamese), that force hiding weapons in coffins being carried in from the countryside, also isn’t done and learning that it’s feasible cost us countless lives. Winning a war while _never winning a pitched battle_ is also not done, is considered impossible even now, but it cost South Vietnam its independence. We haven’t learned the lesson the Van Ripers of the world try to teach us gently, and we never do until the Ho Chi Minhs, the Osama bin Ladins, and the Saddam Husseins host the final exams. ---
**Author:** ![Wabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wabbit)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2003, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-military-cheats-at-war-games-surprise-surprise/128265/62 "2003-01-21T21:32:29Z")
Amen **Derleth** –I’m thinking most of the shmoe’s playing on our side haven’t seen a ‘real’ war and are thinking this one’s going to be a cakewalk like the Gulf War was. They should be looking at what happened in Somalia instead. ---
**Author:** ![montag01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@montag01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/montag01)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-military-cheats-at-war-games-surprise-surprise/128265/63 "2003-03-28T21:54:58Z")
Considering an article posted on Yahoo today, I think this thread deserves a rereading: [http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=us&cat=us\_armed\_forces](http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=us&cat=us_armed_forces) > [@](#): > > “The enemy we’re fighting against is different from the one we’d war-gamed against,” Wallace, commander of V Corps, told The New York Times and The Washington Post on Thursday. Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Wabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wabbit)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-military-cheats-at-war-games-surprise-surprise/128265/64 "2003-03-28T22:16:03Z")
Yea–this is one case in which I hate to be able to say ‘I told you so’ even if it is (unfortunately) the case. ---
**Author:** ![LiveOctopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LiveOctopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LiveOctopus)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2003, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-military-cheats-at-war-games-surprise-surprise/128265/65 "2003-03-28T23:58:43Z")
I particularly enjoyed this line from the months-old article: > [@](#): > > “One way is to march straight to Baghdad, blowing up everything in your way and then by shock and awe you cause the regime to collapse,” Pike says. “That is what Rumsfeld is complaining about when he talks about unimaginative plodding. The alternative is to bypass the Iraqi forces and deliver a decisive blow.” Interesting stuff. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-military-cheats-at-war-games-surprise-surprise/128265/66 "2003-03-29T00:36:00Z")
Wallace, unfortunately, probably delivered a career-ending line there. I hope not, but telling the truth rarely gets your career advanced, either in private or public life. Sigh. Anyway, I just saw Barry Mccaffrey on CNBC, and he was almost apoplectic about the An Nasiriyah situation, saying that the fact we still have however many missing Marines there indicates that the fighting there is very intense. He said Marines never leave bodies behind if they can possibly help it. Basically, he said they rolled the dice with a risky plan and they lost. They should just admit it instead of trying to minimize the blunder, and bring in what they need to finish the job. I’m sure they’ll do the latter, but I doubt those tools in DC would ever admit that they were wrong, though. Instead, Wallace will pay. How dare he lose his cool in the middle of combat! ---
**Author:** ![Wabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wabbit)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-military-cheats-at-war-games-surprise-surprise/128265/67 "2003-03-29T01:17:17Z")
Rumsfeld is actually making McNamara (sp–the Sec. of War during Viet Nam) look like a genius. Didn’t think that was possible, but I guess I was wrong. Pretty amazing, eh? ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-military-cheats-at-war-games-surprise-surprise/128265/68 "2003-03-29T01:42:21Z")
It is, actually. It’s like these guys want to recreate every single mistake of Vietnam, right up to underestimating the enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-military-cheats-at-war-games-surprise-surprise/128265/69 "2003-03-29T07:01:01Z")
Golly, I didn’t see this the first time. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Derleth \* > Suicide attacks with civilian craft. Where the hell have we heard that before? Naahh… no _Islamic terrorist group_ would possibly do that. Free clue Wabbit: Iraq is a secular state. And so far your suicide boats haven’t manifested. > [@](#): > > Beirut was bombed to hell with mortars and Palestinian B-52s. Every Israeli who rides the bus knows that.Yeah. He’s right near Saudi Arabia, where all of the young men _really, really love us and would never join Al-Quaeda._ Lebanon is not Iraq. Furthermore, the soldiers there were a big fat target waiting to happen. A fault of government policy, not the Marine’s tactics. > [@](#): > > How stupid of me for thinking so.Yep. Kamikaze raiders were most certainly not worth preparing for.Eh, all around ours?Hm… barely-trained pilots in substandard planes on suicide missions _will not work._ Quick, go back in time and notify the Japanese. It was a total waste of resources according to most people who have analysed the cost of the campaign. Just because the films make good cop on the History channel doesn’t make it worthwhile. Furthermore, secular Iraq is not Imperial Japan. > [@](#): > > Yeah. We really kicked their asses.But, ya see, _we didn’t._ We lost. Get the picture? “We”? It was a computer game. > [@](#): > > And those civilians would be happy to play by our rules and throw down their Molotov cocktails and unhook the C4 wrapped around them. After all, civilian warriors _just isn’t cricket._ Every young Saudi man knows that.Heh. So do reccommend total anihallation of the Iraqi civilians? Please, your comparison is laughable. > [@](#): > > Gotta love CMA.But, ya see, _he did._ _It worked._ _We lost._ No, that was froma different game. The one where he won they Americans never got off the boat. Remember? > [@](#): > > Oh, and good luck getting those 777s to the WTC and the Pentagon. Silly terrorists, airliners are for Americans. Apples and Oranges. > [@](#): > > I’m sure the US Army will agree when Iraq plays by all the rules and Saddam’s a graceful, polite loser. \*\* Right now the army is sitting just South of Bagdad and the armchair generals are whining that 10 days is too slow. We’ve lost an average or 4-10 soldiers per day over 10 days verses the 100+ soldiers we lost in 100 hours of Gulf War. Oh, and lets not forget those 38 coallition jets that were lost. I’d like to know exactly what doctrine has failed so massively? The whiney armchair generalling in this thread is pathetic. BTW, for the record, the wargames Wallace is talking about are completely different from the wargames mentioned in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-military-cheats-at-war-games-surprise-surprise/128265/70 "2003-03-29T08:38:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Miskatonic \* > Free clue Wabbit: Iraq is a secular state. And so far your suicide boats haven’t manifested. Free clue, Wabbit, [yes they have.](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82355,00.html) ] [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-military-cheats-at-war-games-surprise-surprise/128265/71 "2003-03-29T14:17:12Z")
In other news, at least we learn from our war games. [http://www.iht.com/articles/91481.html](http://www.iht.com/articles/91481.html) And as far as that taxi-bomb, I’d be a lot more concerned if there were more of them. One of anything is an anomaly. It may be that there will be more of them… but it’s not going to win the war. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-military-cheats-at-war-games-surprise-surprise/128265/72 "2003-03-29T14:50:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Miskatonic \* > **Free clue Wabbit: Iraq is a secular state. And so far your suicide boats haven’t manifested.** How about [suicide cars?](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/29/sprj.irq.car.bomb/index.html) > [@](#): > > \*\*Right now the army is sitting just South of Bagdad and the armchair generals are whining that 10 days is too slow. > > … > > The whiney armchair generalling in this thread is pathetic.\*\* Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-military-cheats-at-war-games-surprise-surprise/128265/73 "2003-03-29T15:56:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Miskatonic \* > Saddam doesn’t have such a suicide contingent. Japan would be lucky to have had so many in WW2. Ever hear of _Saddam’s Fedayeen_? aka Men of Sacrifice. aka Those willing to die for Saddam. > **[MSNBC News - Breaking News and News Today | Latest News](https://www.msnbc.com/)** > > MSNBC breaking news and the latest news for today. Get daily news from local news reporters and world news updates with live audio & video from our team. [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/26/60II/main546259.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/26/60II/main546259.shtml) [http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/2020/iraq\_fedayeen030324.html](http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/2020/iraq_fedayeen030324.html) Numbers of fedayeen are estimated anywhere from 20,000 to 60,000. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-military-cheats-at-war-games-surprise-surprise/128265/74 "2003-03-29T17:47:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rsa \* > \*\*Ever hear of _Saddam’s Fedayeen_? > > aka Men of Sacrifice. > > aka Those willing to die for Saddam. > > [http://www.msnbc.com/news/891794.asp](http://www.msnbc.com/news/891794.asp) > > [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/26/60II/main546259.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/26/60II/main546259.shtml) > > [http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/2020/iraq\_fedayeen030324.html](http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/2020/iraq_fedayeen030324.html) > > Numbers of fedayeen are estimated anywhere from 20,000 to 60,000. \*\* The same things were said about the Hitler youth. A handful of them died in suicide attacks. Most just ran, surrendered, or were killed easily. If they are so willing to die, why aren’t they? A handful of incidents is not exactly destroying the coalition forces. I don’t deny that there won’t be a few instances of this. But the idea that you could get enough suiciders to sink a fleet or wipe out any signifigant number of troops as per the OP is ludicrous. Even Japan had a hard time getting volunteers for Kamakazi attacks after the first batch were used. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-military-cheats-at-war-games-surprise-surprise/128265/75 "2003-03-29T17:55:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tars Tarkas \* > \*\*Free clue, Wabbit, [yes they have.](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82355,00.html) > ] \*\* [/QUOTE] Ah yes, one boat, stopped by Iranians. Obviously shows how unprepared we are. :rolleyes:. We’re just a close step away from seeing our entire fleet on the bottom of the sea. And that bit about “SEALS and COAST Guards” keeping a very close eye" and the mention of the Navy’s concern about their use obviosuly shows unwilling they are to confront any such threat as they expect to just reset the computer when they get the fleet sunk. ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-military-cheats-at-war-games-surprise-surprise/128265/76 "2003-03-29T18:17:38Z")
The fedayeen have no future if Saddam is gone. They have nothing to lose. I don’t think anyone is arguing that the Iraqis are going to sink our fleet. The question was whether “blue” was unprepared for a naval attack during the war game. They obviously were and presumably learned from that. BTW, such an attack would not have to be carried out entirely with suicide boats. Just this morning CNN’s military analyst Gen. Don Shepperd said that the silkworm anti-ship missile could be launched from a dhow. He said it would be difficult and the missile would be hard to conceal, but it could be done. I have heard that the Navy is indeed keeping a wary eye out for any dhow that gets in the area. ---
**Author:** ![Wabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wabbit)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-military-cheats-at-war-games-surprise-surprise/128265/77 "2003-03-29T19:21:57Z")
Far be it for me to piss on your rant here **Miskatonic’s** , but I didn’t write the post you responded too, **Derleth** did. As far as armchair generalling, normally I would agree with you but when people with military experience (in which I include myself, by the way) start questioning the manner in which this war is being carried out, perhaps we have a point or two. Here’s some good military tactics for you: 1. Never make assumptions about what the enemy will do. Expect the worst and prepare for it. In other words, don’t expect the Iraqi’s to surrender because they’re ‘wrong’. 2. Figure out the maximum number of troops you’d need to win if everything went wrong, then double or (preferably) triple it. In other words, don’t have your theater reserve sitting around in Texas while their equipment sits around on ships. And counting on the Turks to let you move through their territory violates rule #1. 3. If you’re a civilian, your job is to tell the military where to fight and what you want them to accomplish in general terms. Your job is not to make military strategy–let them do that. Generalling from DC is a recipe for disaster (in fact I can’t think of a single time that it’s worked). These are very basic rules for military success and Rumsfeld did none of them. Look at the interview with the commander on the ground (Wallace I think his name is)–you’ll see he has problems with our preparations too, as do the wounded Marines they interviewed in Germany. I’ll take their word over some dumbass suit in DC, thank you very much. The fact that I (and I don’t consider myself a military genius by any stretch of the imagination) saw the flaws in their plan before the whole thing even started just shows how ill-thought-out it was. Underestimating your enemy is the worst, absolutely worst, mistake a leader can make (look at Vietnam and Somalia) and damned if we didn’t do it yet again. Something else to keep in mind–we haven’t even gotten to Baghdad yet. All the urban combat we’ve seen so far isn’t even with Saddam’s elite forces yet. This thing is going to get ugly when we get there (and it’s plenty ugly already). I honestly hope I’m wrong, but I’m getting the sinking feeling that I won’t be. I’m feeling for our folks in Iraq right now, and I hope that our leaders are competent enough to ensure that their hardships aren’t in vain although events to this point don’t give me much confidence. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-military-cheats-at-war-games-surprise-surprise/128265/78 "2003-03-29T21:21:20Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Wabbit \* > **Far be it for me to piss on your rant here** Miskatonic’s_\*, but I didn’t write the post you responded too, **Derleth** did. So noted. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2003, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-military-cheats-at-war-games-surprise-surprise/128265/79 "2003-03-30T07:30:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. Miskatonic \* > > * * * Ah yes, one boat, stopped by Iranians. Obviously shows how unprepared we are. :rolleyes:. We’re just a close step away from seeing our entire fleet on the bottom of the sea. And that bit about “SEALS and COAST Guards” keeping a very close eye" and the mention of the Navy’s concern about their use obviosuly shows unwilling they are to confront any such threat as they expect to just reset the computer when they get the fleet sunk. \*\* [/QUOTE] So your response to being proved wrong is to dismiss it with a wave of your hand. how’s life with your head in the sand? –There’s no boats! —Uh, they caught a boat and some others escaped –The boats suck! Why did you bring up the boats? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-military-cheats-at-war-games-surprise-surprise/128265.md?page=3)