# U.S. sponsoring Kurdish guerrilla attacks inside Iran **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2007, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717 "2007-03-27T18:42:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717/1 "2007-03-27T18:42:00Z")
Story [here.](http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/27/1356250) 1. Why do this? We have enough tension with Iran as it is. 2. Is this simply turnabout? Payback for Iran encouraging/funding insurgents in Iraq? 3. Won’t anything that encourages Kurdish nationalism alienate our allies the Turks? 4. Does this news make it more or less credible that the Bush Admin is spoiling for war with Iran? 5. What will the Kurds get out of all this? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717/2 "2007-03-27T19:02:08Z")
If it is payback, it’ll have to go a good bit further than this before our grievances with the mullahs are evened out. Given the numberless times Iran has stirred up trouble in the Middle East by exploiting religious divides and encouraging radicalism, a bit of this medicine ought to be very distasteful to them. Too bad. Their treatment of religious and ethnic minorities is shameful, and would invite opposition even without any assistance from outside. Remember, Persians only make up barely over half of the entire country. And while the regime is concerned about the Kurds, they’re positively terrified of the Azeri Turks, who are a huge minority of about 25%. The Azeris get a lot of support in their struggle from irredentist Azeris in Azerbaijan, which is a pretty strong American ally as well. All of this feeds the paranoia of a regime that started out paranoid. As much pressure as they’re under, I can’t fathom why the mullahs act the way that they do. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717/3 "2007-03-27T21:31:49Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Remember, Persians only make up barely over half of the entire country. And while the regime is concerned about the Kurds, they’re positively terrified of the Azeri Turks, who are a huge minority of about 25%. The Azeris get a lot of support in their struggle from irredentist Azeris in Azerbaijan, which is a pretty strong American ally as well. [/QUOTE] Waitaminnit – what Azeri struggle? I know Iran is a [multinational state.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Iran_ethnoreligious_distribution_2004.jpg) And I know about the Kurdish separatists, and the Arabs of Khuzestan/Arabistan/al-Ahwaz. But this is the first I’ve heard of any active Azeri separatism in Iran. We have previously [debated](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=370464) the possibility that Iran might break up along ethnocultural lines. **Tamerlane** made a persuasive case that a sense of “Iranian” national identity is surprisingly well-developed, even among the Azeri, whom **Tamerlane** calls “the co-dominant Turkish minority.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717/4 "2007-03-27T21:45:11Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > The Azeris get a lot of support in their struggle from irredentist Azeris in Azerbaijan, which is a pretty strong American ally as well. Actually, it appears that as **BG** noted, the [Iranian Azeris](http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2003/August/Azeri/) **aren’t** putting up much of a separatist struggle: > [@](#): > > Why have not Iranian Azeris, a conspicuous minority numbering in the millions, shown a willingness to assert their nationalist ambitions and join their newly independent kin north of the border? The stakes are enormous. Iranian Azerbaijan, densely populated and industrial, is intensely valuable to Tehran, while the newly independent Republic of Azerbaijan holds huge amounts of oil and gas ready to be exploited by foreign energy companies. […] > > In the most simplistic breakdown, the dormancy of Azeri nationalism in Iran is the result of the historic bonds between Tehran and the Caucauses, the success of the Shah and the Islamic Republic in integrating Azeris into the political and economic elite of the country, the overarching sense of a unique Shia/Iranian nationalism developed by the Shah and the Islamic Republic, the unity created by Saddam Hussein’s invasion in 1980, and the carrot and stick policy followed by the current reformist Khatami administration. [Note that this article is from 2003.] […] > > The Azeris have a long list of historical grievances. These complaints, however, mirror the cries of the entire Iranian population: frustration with the constraints of religious government, corruption, social restrictions, unemployment, and inflation. Most observers on the ground deny claims by groups in Baku and the likes of Chereghani, who claim wholesale disenchantment with the idea of the Iranian nation-state. > > The frustrations of Iranian Azeris, as in 1979, are concurrent with the mood of the Iranian people as a whole. In 1999, pro-democracy protests in Tabriz ranked second only to the ones in Tehran in size and focused on the granting of greater press freedoms throughout the country. The thousands that demonstrated at Tabriz University conspicuously did not include any references to Azeri nationalism in their agenda. > > There is no doubt a historical bond between the Caucuses and Tehran. Indeed, what is now the Republic of Azerbaijan was part of Iran for most of history. Looking at at the issue of Azeri nationalism in this light causes us to realize that Azeri ethnic feeling is too intertwined with Iranian nationalism for a meaningful voluntary separation to occur. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717/5 "2007-03-27T22:22:57Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] If it is payback, it’ll have to go a good bit further than this before our grievances with the mullahs are evened out. … All of this feeds the paranoia of a regime that started out paranoid. As much pressure as they’re under, I can’t fathom why the mullahs act the way that they do. [/QUOTE] Maybe because we overthrew their democratically-elected government and installed a puppet dictator so that our oil companies could reap massive profits? Their might be some residual mistrust. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717/6 "2007-03-27T22:29:18Z")
[QUOTE=toadspittle] Maybe because we overthrew their democratically-elected government and installed a puppet dictator so that our oil companies could reap massive profits? **Their** might be some residual mistrust. [/QUOTE] Doh. There should be a **there** there. ---
**Author:** ![Elsie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b2d939/32.png) [@Elsie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elsie)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717/7 "2007-03-27T22:35:04Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] 1. What will the Kurds get out of all this? [/QUOTE] Don’t want to go too strong on speculation as there’s bound to be several contributing factors behind the scenes, but the fact is there is no Iraq anymore, it’s gone, finished, history. So the game moves forward into shaping the post-Iraq environment, with, as always, both Imperial eyes focused on getting as close to controlling the oil as as humanly possible. One imagines the USA is shopping for deals with potential ‘friends’ in the new post-Iraq environment, the Kurds will be keen to protect as much of their real estate as possible, it’s a marriage made in hell. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717/8 "2007-03-27T22:53:08Z")
The Assyrians probably paid the Philistines to stir up trouble in Israel. All this is is enabling some group to do stuff they want to do anyway. I don’t see it as retribution, but just as good old asymmetric warfare. We make big protestations of shock and horror when the Iranians do it to us, and they do the same when we do it to them. If this were the greatest of Bush’s sins, I might support the guy. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2007, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717/9 "2007-03-27T23:42:26Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Story [here.](http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/27/1356250) 1. Why do this? We have enough tension with Iran as it is. 2. Is this simply turnabout? Payback for Iran encouraging/funding insurgents in Iraq? 3. Won’t anything that encourages Kurdish nationalism alienate our allies the Turks? 4. Does this news make it more or less credible that the Bush Admin is spoiling for war with Iran? 5. What will the Kurds get out of all this? [/QUOTE] Do you have any sources for this that aren’t ‘Democracy Now!’ and a lone independent reporter making assumptions/claims based on what some guy on the street told him? (Note, I’m not saying this isn’t happening, I’m just not willing to blindly trust the words of one reporter who, in his interview, reveals some very blatant biases. In all honesty I’d be disappointed if the United States _weren’t_ taking advantage of Kurdish unrest in Iran.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717/10 "2007-03-28T00:07:58Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Do you have any sources for this that aren’t ‘Democracy Now!’ and a lone independent reporter making assumptions/claims based on what some guy on the street told him? Well, the UK _Sunday Telegraph_ was [reporting](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/25/wiran25.xml) on basically the same phenomenon back in February: > [@](#): > > America is secretly funding militant ethnic separatist groups in Iran in an attempt to pile pressure on the Islamic regime to give up its nuclear programme. > > In a move that reflects Washington’s growing concern with the failure of diplomatic initiatives, CIA officials are understood to be helping opposition militias among the numerous ethnic minority groups clustered in Iran’s border regions. > > The operations are controversial because they involve dealing with movements that resort to terrorist methods in pursuit of their grievances against the Iranian regime. […] > > Funding for their separatist causes comes directly from the CIA’s classified budget but is now “no great secret”, according to one former high-ranking CIA official in Washington who spoke anonymously to The Sunday Telegraph. > > His claims were backed by Fred Burton, a former US state department counter-terrorism agent, who said: “The latest attacks inside Iran fall in line with US efforts to supply and train Iran’s ethnic minorities to destabilise the Iranian regime.” […] > > Such a policy is fraught with risk, however. Many of the groups share little common cause with Washington other than their opposition to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, whose regime they accuse of stepping up repression of minority rights and culture. > > The Baluchistan-based Brigade of God group, which last year kidnapped and killed eight Iranian soldiers, is a volatile Sunni organisation that many fear could easily turn against Washington after taking its money. > > A row has also broken out in Washington over whether to “unleash” the military wing of the Mujahedeen-e Khalq (MEK), an Iraq-based Iranian opposition group with a long and bloody history of armed opposition to the Iranian regime. > > The group is currently listed by the US state department as terrorist organisation, but Mr Pike said: “A faction in the Defence Department wants to unleash them. They could never overthrow the current Iranian regime but they might cause a lot of damage.” > [@Martin Hyde](#): > > In all honesty I’d be disappointed if the United States weren’t taking advantage of Kurdish unrest in Iran. Even to the extent of our funding operations that are widely acknowledged to be terrorist activities? Some of these folks look pretty unsavory, and I’m troubled by the potential future consequences of being associated with them. Isn’t this basically the same kind of amoral opportunism that earlier had us lining up behind Saddam Hussein in Iraq and fundamentalist Islamist extremists in Afghanistan? Neither of those alliances worked out all that well in the long run, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717/11 "2007-03-28T01:02:39Z")
The Azeri struggle isn’t separatist yet. However, there are tensions there, and it is undoubtedly true that the regime fears the Azeri tensions may get out of hand. In May of last year, a publication published a cartoon of an Azeri speaking cockroach. This touched off massive riots in Iranian Azerbaijan that left the government quite shaken. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717/12 "2007-03-28T01:23:17Z")
I missed the part about Reese Erlich reporting on the actual raids. Did I skim too fast? ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717/13 "2007-03-28T03:45:56Z")
Just for purposes of clarification, neither **Mr. Moto** , **Martin Hyde** , nor any of the other conservatives stumbling upon this thread would actually support or defend the United States becoming a state sponsor of terror, would you? ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717/14 "2007-03-28T10:09:54Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Story [here.](http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/27/1356250) 1. Why do this? We have enough tension with Iran as it is. 2. Is this simply turnabout? Payback for Iran encouraging/funding insurgents in Iraq? 3. Won’t anything that encourages Kurdish nationalism alienate our allies the Turks? 4. Does this news make it more or less credible that the Bush Admin is spoiling for war with Iran? 5. What will the Kurds get out of all this? [/QUOTE] My machine is mute, so I could not listen to the story. 1. Possibly the Kurds don’t need encouragement 2. Possibly not a turnabout - just the same old story 3. The Turks would be well hacked off if they thought the USA was supporting a breakup of Turkey - personally I think the Kurds would be better off keeping quiet, if they play their cards right then they’ll be on the border of the EC 4. I’m not sure that Bush is spoiling for war with Iran, it would not be a war, more a replay of S. Lebanon - Iran in a mess could be … messy 5. The Kurds think they have shed loads of oil (so one told me) so I can see Iranian Kurds quite liking the idea of cutting loose from Iran, ditto the Syrian Kurds - the Turkish Kurds would be better off in the EC, but they might not have figured that out. The USA should have learned its lesson from Afghanistan: ‘My enemy’s enemy is often far nastier than my enemy’ Personally I would give no active support, and quietly point out that disrupting anyone is seldom a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717/15 "2007-03-28T16:06:51Z")
Heavens no. But the fact that a few Kurds or Baluchis or even Azeris in Iran engage in terror does not change the fact that others in those communities who do not do so have legitimate grievances against the Iranian regime. And given our interests in the region and human rights concerns, it would be helpful to us and to them to have contacts with these communities and give them moral and material support. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717/16 "2007-03-28T16:44:55Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Heavens no. But the fact that a few Kurds or Baluchis or even Azeris in Iran engage in terror does not change the fact that others in those communities who do not do so have legitimate grievances against the Iranian regime. And given our interests in the region and human rights concerns, it would be helpful to us and to them to have contacts with these communities and give them moral and material support. [/QUOTE] But, the ultimate tendency of their “legitimate grievances” is **secession.** And we know a state almost never gives up any part of its national territory without a fight. Do we really want to encourage them down that path? ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717/17 "2007-03-28T16:52:50Z")
Last year, the reports coming out of Pakistan indicated that they were practically fighting a civil war with the Baluchis. Now, we’re going to provide support to Baluchi militants in Iran? The most likely outcome of this is that the Baluchis will take whatever support we give them and use it to fight both the Iranians and the Pakistanis. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717/18 "2007-03-28T16:53:37Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] And given our interests in the region and human rights concerns, it would be helpful to us and to them to have contacts with these communities and give them moral and material support. [/QUOTE] Or to phrase this a little differently, given our history of disastrous attempts to intervene in the region, we shouldn’t have an iota of confidence that giving moral and material support for these people won’t go epically wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717/19 "2007-03-28T17:13:53Z")
[QUOTE=threemae] Just for purposes of clarification, neither **Mr. Moto** , **Martin Hyde** , nor any of the other conservatives stumbling upon this thread would actually support or defend the United States becoming a state sponsor of terror, would you? [/QUOTE] Not at all. And just to be sure, they’ve asked the Attorney General for a clarification on exactly what constitutes “terrorism.” ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2007, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717/20 "2007-03-28T17:45:48Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] Even to the extent of our funding operations that are widely acknowledged to be terrorist activities? Some of these folks look pretty unsavory, and I’m troubled by the potential future consequences of being associated with them. Isn’t this basically the same kind of amoral opportunism that earlier had us lining up behind Saddam Hussein in Iraq and fundamentalist Islamist extremists in Afghanistan? Neither of those alliances worked out all that well in the long run, IIRC. [/QUOTE] I think they worked out splendidly. Saddam turned on us, which was unfortunate, but easily dealt with and with little blood shed in the first Persian Gulf War, our error at the time (and by “our” I mean the West as a whole because the U.S. was not alone or even remotely so in funding Saddam) was in not removing him from power right then, when we had an overwhelming military presence, support of the entire world, and even raging dissent within his own country working against him. The argument has long been that we never could have gotten international support for actually toppling him, but I’m honestly unsure of that assessment to this very day and am not at all sure the elder Bush didn’t make an error in judgment by being too timid in forcing the matter. But back to the point, before he turned on us, he kept Iran busy throughout the 1980s, and weakened Iran considerably by forcing their involvement in an incredibly costly and brutal war. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-sponsoring-kurdish-guerrilla-attacks-inside-iran/397717.md?page=2)