# U.S. ties Iranian leader to bombs killing U.S. troops **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2007, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757 "2007-02-11T19:47:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757/81 "2007-02-12T22:35:56Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] …This is totally insane! [/QUOTE] Not quite yet.. [http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-02-12-voa20.cfm](http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-02-12-voa20.cfm) **Top American General Disputes US Military Claim on Iran** OK, now it is. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757/82 "2007-02-12T22:41:16Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] Surely Bush knows he cannot attack Iran. [/QUOTE] What’s to stop him ? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757/83 "2007-02-12T23:32:19Z")
Attacking Iran would be a last resort. Responding to a sneak attack would be ideal, pre-emptive strikes to protect our heroes would do pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757/84 "2007-02-12T23:43:40Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] **Top American General Disputes US Military Claim on Iran** [/QUOTE] Anyone taking bets on how long he remains “top American military commander”? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2007, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757/85 "2007-02-12T23:45:09Z")
Well. Its about 6:30 ET now…10? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757/86 "2007-02-13T00:37:33Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] Surely Bush knows he cannot attack Iran. So what then is driving his actions? [/QUOTE] … Shirley, you jest? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757/87 "2007-02-13T01:11:02Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Not quite yet.. [http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-02-12-voa20.cfm](http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-02-12-voa20.cfm) **Top American General Disputes US Military Claim on Iran** OK, now it is. [/QUOTE] Whoever wrote that headline should be fired. General Pace did not **dispute** the claim, he merely declined to endorse it, on the quite reasonable grounds that he had not been briefed. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757/88 "2007-02-13T01:15:22Z")
Did you read it, **BG**? > [@Gen. Pace](#): > > We know that the explosively formed projectiles are manufactured in Iran. What I would not say is that the Iranian government, per se [specifically], knows about this. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757/89 "2007-02-13T01:27:52Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Did you read it, **BG**? [/QUOTE] Yeah, I read that. It’s what **I** would say, being a civilian entirely shut out of the loop. It’s not a dispute or denial. Pace can honorably change his tune (or not) after reviewing the “evidence.” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757/90 "2007-02-13T02:56:27Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] Surely Bush knows he cannot attack Iran. [/QUOTE] I doubt he knows that. And don’t…well, _you_ know. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757/91 "2007-02-13T03:00:29Z")
One of the Iran briefers was apparently [Maj. Gen. William Caldwell](http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002536.php), who has often briefed the press under his own name, but apparently didn’t want to be associated with this pile of crap. If this was a few years ago, I’d wonder why. By now, it’s pretty obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757/92 "2007-02-13T03:10:21Z")
If any withdrawal of American troops from Iraq will only “embolden the enemy”, then we can never, ever withdraw our troops. Is that about right? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757/93 "2007-02-13T03:15:20Z")
[QUOTE=Frostillicus] If any withdrawal of American troops from Iraq will only “embolden the enemy”, then we can never, ever withdraw our troops. Is that about right? [/QUOTE] Well, not until a stable and effective Iraqi government and Iraqi military are established and there is no threat of further civil violence if we withdraw. IOW, never, ever. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757/94 "2007-02-13T07:10:08Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Yeah, I read that. It’s what **I** would say, being a civilian entirely shut out of the loop. It’s not a dispute or denial. Pace can honorably change his tune (or not) after reviewing the “evidence.” [/QUOTE] Actually, rereading the article more carefully, I fear you are right. It looks much less like a direct contradiction and more like an “I didn’t get the memo.” (One could perhaps argue that the “top military commander” should be in the immediate loop on a revelation of such import, but that’s another story.) If he repeats the assertion after a day or two, after he’s surely had time to be “briefed,” I will find it more impressive. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757/95 "2007-02-13T10:17:40Z")
[WaPo today](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/12/AR2007021201537.html): > [@](#): > > Marine Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said yesterday that he has no information indicating Iran’s government is directing the supply of lethal weapons to Shiite insurgent groups in Iraq. > > “We know that the explosively formed projectiles are manufactured in Iran,” Pace told Voice of America during a visit to Australia. “What I would not say is that the Iranian government, per se, knows about this.” > > “It is clear that Iranians are involved, and it’s clear that materials from Iran are involved,” he continued, “but I would not say by what I know that the Iranian government clearly knows or is complicit.” > > Pace’s comments came a day after U.S. military officials in Baghdad alleged that the “highest levels” of the Iranian government have directed use of weapons that are killing U.S. troops in Iraq. No information was provided to substantiate the charge. Administration officials yesterday deflected requests for more details, even as they repeatedly implied Tehran’s involvement. > [@](#): > > Pressed repeatedly, Snow answered, “Look, the Department of Defense is doing this. What I’m telling you is, you guys want to get those questions answered, you need to go to the Pentagon.” > > A call to the Defense Intelligence Agency brought a referral to the main Pentagon press office. That office referred a caller to the Washington office of the Multi-National Force-Iraq, which responded with an e-mailed copy of Sunday’s briefing slides – containing no mention of the “highest levels” allegation and a request for questions in writing. Written questions brought no response. What a bunch of wankers. One would think the Baghdad briefing just materialized out of thin air. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757/96 "2007-02-13T10:24:50Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] [WaPo today](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/12/AR2007021201537.html): What a bunch of wankers. One would think the Baghdad briefing just materialized out of thin air. [/QUOTE] The ‘briefing’ for journalists consisted mainly of a powerpoint presentation. They weren’t provided with a copy and not allowed to picture the physical ‘evidence’. No doubt to stop us wasting our time futilely querying the provenance and robustness of such cast-iron proof. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757/97 "2007-02-13T14:41:39Z")
[Article in the Daily Telegraph.](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/13/wiran13.xml) Last year, the Steyr company in Austria shipped 800 .50 caliber rifles to Iran. The weapons were requested by the government there to help with antinarcotics efforts. Over the last year, more than 100 of those weapons, or more than 12% of of a shipment of rifles that cost more than $23,000 each, have been discovered in the hands of insurgents in Iraq by British and American forces. The weapons have been used to kill at least one American officer. This is another smoking gun, this time a literal one. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757/98 "2007-02-13T15:05:50Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] [Article in the Daily Telegraph.](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/13/wiran13.xml) Last year, the Steyr company in Austria shipped 800 .50 caliber rifles to Iran. The weapons were requested by the government there to help with antinarcotics efforts. Over the last year, more than 100 of those weapons, or more than 12% of of a shipment of rifles that cost more than $23,000 each, have been discovered in the hands of insurgents in Iraq by British and American forces. The weapons have been used to kill at least one American officer. This is another smoking gun, this time a literal one. [/QUOTE] Yes, that looks pretty damning but it is a poor thin excuse for war and still doesn’t show this is official Iranian action and not a rogue operation. So long as the USA and the UK insist on their right to attack and invade, insist on their right to arm and fund whoever they like then they can’t complain when others do the same. And of course it pales into insignificance compared to the whole Contra/Ollie North shit pile. Given the belligerent attitude of Bush to Iran if I were in charge I’d think myself derelict in my duty if I wasn’t doing everything possible to keep the invaders next door too tied up to carry out their regime change fantasies. And i’ve no doubt at all we are arming and supplying terrorists in Iran. Like [the MEK](http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/US_outsourcing_special_operations_intelligence_gathering_0413.html) > [@](#): > > According to all three intelligence sources, military and intelligence officials alike were alarmed that instead of securing a known terrorist organization, which has been responsible for acts of terror against Iranian targets and individuals all over the world – including US civilian and military casualties – Rumsfeld under instructions from Cheney, began using the group on special ops missions into Iran to pave the way for a potential Iran strike. The answer, as the Iraq Study Group said, is to sit down and negotiate with Syria and Iran and drop all this Axis of Evil comic book simplicities. Iran and Syria both know that whatever influence they have over the various militias and insurgent groups (and I’d bet it’s minor compared to domestic Iraq motivations) is a bargaining chip. It’s not like we have any qualms about supping with a host of other equally vile regimes around the world. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757/99 "2007-02-13T15:11:50Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Fine by me. Every American soldier who dies in Iraq is a victory for humanity in general. Right now the greatest danger to the world is America, IMHO. Not Islam, radical or not. [/QUOTE] SHHH!. Didn’t you get the memo? You’re supposed to say something to the effect that “you’re opposed to the war but you support the troops”, or something similar. Pay attention. Try not to let this slip out again. This is almost as big a mistake that the NY Time’s made: the Abu Ghraib story was supposed to make it to page one no more than 149 times. Try to be more careful, comrade. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2007, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757/100 "2007-02-13T15:51:08Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Last year, the Steyr company in Austria shipped 800 .50 caliber rifles to Iran. The weapons were requested by the government there to help with antinarcotics efforts. … Over the last year, more than 100 of those weapons, or more than 12% of of a shipment of rifles that cost more than $23,000 each, have been discovered in the hands of insurgents in Iraq … This is another smoking gun, this time a literal one. [/QUOTE] Oh please, these are Iranian Narcotics squads. You presumption of their lack of corruption is staggeringly naive. [Weapons go missing](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6407177) even when handled with the best of intentions: > [@](#): > > The U.S. military can’t account for thousands of weapons purchased to arm some 325,500 Iraqi security forces by December, according to a new report. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said last week that the U.S. military would beef up Iraqi forces’ training. But the new data reveals weaknesses in the arming of Iraqi security forces. For all anyone knows, the devices on display last sunday were purchased on the international market, > [@](#): > > [Maltese involved in trafficking weapons to Iraq](http://www.di-ve.com/dive/portal/portal.jhtml?id=268504&pid=23) > A group involved in trafficking thousands of weapons to rebellious groups in Iraq had close connections with Malta, the Italian police said on Monday. > … > 500,000 AK 47 rifles and ten million pieces of ammunition were traced, but no weapons were confiscated. and have nothing to do with Iran, other than the fact that Iran does have an arms industry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-ties-iranian-leader-to-bombs-killing-u-s-troops/391757.md?page=6)