# U.S. to Provide Military Assistance to Syrian Rebels **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941 "2013-06-13T23:43:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941/161 "2013-06-19T04:13:26Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Forgive my ignorance, but which countries are Muslim democracies? > Iran recently had an election, but the candidates were carefully selected by the ruling religious folks. Respectfully, no serious person has ever suggested that Iran was a democracy. Beyond that, only a moron or a bigot would suggest that Muslims were less capable of Democracy than Christians. Beyond that, by the standards set earlier most countries in the Middle East were “secular”. Iran and Saudi Arabia are the exception not the rule. Anyway, if we’re going to allow White Christians to have Christian democracies, I see no reason to say Muslims can’t have Muslim democracies. For that matter, in the West, nobody thinks it’s controversial to claim Israel is a democracy despite the fact that for the first half of it’s existence it placed all of it’s non-Jewish citizens under military rule and for the second half it denied roughly 40% of the population citizenship. I can’t remember anyone questioning the idea of Jews being capable of democracy. For the record, I don’t question either of the other two thirds of the Abrahamic religions. I just find it interesting that its only the Muslims who seem to have to jump through such hoops. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941/162 "2013-06-19T10:18:17Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Forgive my ignorance, but which countries are Muslim democracies? > Iran recently had an election, but the candidates were carefully selected by the ruling religious folks. Turkey and Indonesia are the only large Muslim majority countries that can make any reasonable claim to being a free and fair elections democracy (which rules our pseudo-democracies like Pakistan and Iran). And the tensions between secularism and even a supposedly ‘moderate’ Islamic govt are showing in Turkey and Aceh is a real blot on Indonesian democracy. Not to mention Indonesian blasphemy laws and general religious persecution of minorities. Edited to add: Christian democracies? What are those? I cannot think of any. It’s only in the USA that anyone even takes that religion seriously enough for it to be a political problem. That cannot be said about Islam and that’s the difference. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941/163 "2013-06-19T10:25:27Z")
… and there are plenty of people who would argue the US is now only a nominal democracy. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941/164 "2013-06-19T11:17:37Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > … and there are plenty of people who would argue the US is now only a nominal democracy. Manufactured democracy? Shadow-democracy? Off topic but it’s an interesting question. At what point, when the ‘cost of entry’ into a political ‘market’ is so high, the force of money so dominant and corrupting and the power of external forces so shaping and constraining do we just admit that the perpetual choice of Tweedledee or Tweedledum is just a pseudo-democratic facade? Sometimes it really just feels that no matter what the electoral outcome is it makes no real difference. Tide of events, force of circumstance and supra-national forces beyond democratic control constrain the politically possible to such an increasingly narrow spectrum of possibilities that beyond ‘culture wars’ it makes not one damn bit of difference how you cast your vote. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941/165 "2013-06-19T11:33:14Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > … and there are plenty of people who would argue the US is now only a nominal democracy. Yes, there’s a technical term for them. Idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941/166 "2013-06-19T11:35:31Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Edited to add: Christian democracies? What are those? I cannot think of any. It’s only in the USA that anyone even takes that religion seriously enough for it to be a political problem. That cannot be said about Islam and that’s the difference. I take it you’ve never been to Europe or, for that matter, Canada? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941/167 "2013-06-19T11:50:38Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I take it you’ve never been to Europe or, for that matter, Canada? Tagos \*is \*from Europe, as am I. I too am puzzled as to which countries you would have in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941/168 "2013-06-19T12:59:16Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Tagos \*is \*from Europe, as am I. I too am puzzled as to which countries you would have in mind. Other than France, I don’t know of any countries that have a separation of Church and State. Beyond that there are several, such as Denmark, which have official state religions. Like I said, “non-secular” does not mean “non-theocracy.” ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941/169 "2013-06-19T13:10:36Z")
I don’t know much about “separation” but religion is pretty marginalised in political life. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941/170 "2013-06-19T13:13:30Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > If he did he would have removed himself from the Constitutional Line of Succession and his eldest son would be next in line. Or if King, like the whole Edward/Wallis thing, he’d abdicate. > > I’m sure the newspapers would have a field day and people would have all kinds of stongly held opinions but politically it would be of no practical significance. > > In the UK we might tick a religious box of some sort on the census forms but by and large we don’t take religious stuff as seriously as the USA does. [hijack]I don’t think that’s true. The onyl religion that bars you for life is (Roman) Catholicism (by birth, conversión or marriage). You have to convert before taking the Crown, but not being Anglican - even if you’re an atheist - doens’t bar you from the throne. [hijack] ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941/171 "2013-06-19T13:39:24Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Manufactured democracy? Shadow-democracy? Off topic but it’s an interesting question. At what point, when the ‘cost of entry’ into a political ‘market’ is so high, the force of money so dominant and corrupting and the power of external forces so shaping and constraining do we just admit that the perpetual choice of Tweedledee or Tweedledum is just a pseudo-democratic facade? > > Sometimes it really just feels that no matter what the electoral outcome is it makes no real difference. Tide of events, force of circumstance and supra-national forces beyond democratic control constrain the politically possible to such an increasingly narrow spectrum of possibilities that beyond ‘culture wars’ it makes not one damn bit of difference how you cast your vote. Ha! True and very depressing, in fact. To paraphrase Cypher: "You know, I know this vote doesn’t matter. I know that when I put it in the ballot box, the Media is telling my brain that it is relevant and important. After nine years, you know what I realize? " ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941/172 "2013-06-19T13:48:52Z")
If voting would change anything, they wouldn’t let us do it. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941/173 "2013-06-19T13:59:32Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You certainly don’t have to be a “secular” country for that to be true. > > Lots of countries that aren’t “secular” and have no separation of Church and State would fit your definition. > > So basically, then you’d have no problem with countries in the Middle East becoming Muslim democracies the way many countries in Europe are Christian democracies. > > Correct? I would have thought it was fairly clear what I meant by now. If their system allows for no persecution of any religion then that’s a good thing. A “Muslim” democracy that works in the same way as many “Christian” democracies in Europe is fine with me, if it does work. As far as I’m concerned, the UK is a de facto secular country. If you disagree with me, that’s fine, but since I have elaborated and clarified, there is no need to debate different interpretations of the word. There is one difficulty I see with this, which is why I’d prefer to see a more officially secular Syria. We, in the UK, don’t feel the need to change the fact that the country is nominally of a certain religion, or that the monarch has far too much power, because we effectively operate 99% of the time as if there is no official religion or monarch. We’ve had hundreds of years to get to this point. Any new government in Syria is going to have to deal with a level of instability we haven’t seen in the UK for centuries. If we had such instability there would be a serious risk of Prince Charles inheriting the throne and exploiting the fact that he would be officially the commander-in-chief of all our armed forces. Therefore, while I don’t see a need for us to change our system as it stands, I would never advocate it when writing a new constitution. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Er… you’re the one who foolishly claimed that the violence between “the Sunnis and the Shiites” in “Iraq” was “over theology.” > > That is as moronic as insisting that the hatred between Russians and Poles, Serbs and Croats, Irish Protestants and Irish Catholics is “over theology.” > > Actually, on second thought it even stupider, because the idea that there’s this massive hatred between “Sunnis and Shiites” in Iraq is a perfect example of how little most westerners understand about this country they invaded and spent over a decade trying to break to their will. > > There is a huge amount of violence between Shia Arabs and Sunni Arabs, but very little violence or hatred between Shia Arabs and the Kurds(who are almost to the man Sunnis) while the Sunni Kurds and Sunni Arabs hate each other. > > What it’s about is we’re seeing the aftermath of an dictatorship’s collapse and the people who were seen as being favored by the dictator(the Sunni Arabs) are fighting the people oppressed by said dictators(the Sunni Kurds and the Shia Arabs).\* > > It’s very much like the hatred between the Tutsis and the Hutus where the people who viewed themselves as the victims of European colonialists attempted to slaughter those they saw as the toadies of colonialism. > > \*. This is a very simplified version of the current situation. Honestly you’re just arguing for argument’s sake. You really ought to get that chip off your shoulder, it’s making you look silly. You appear to gravitate towards any thread where you can jump in and tell us foolish, white westerners how little we understand about Islam and Muslim countries, as if we must always defer to you on the matter. You’re not even arguing about the topic of this thread; you’re arguing about _another_ thread. I’d be interested to know what part of my wish (expressed in _this_ thread) that Syria ends up with a democracy, where no one is victimized, is offensive to you, since you seem to feel a need to respond with strong words but little relevant substance. Personally, I’d say if anything is “moronic” it’s clinging to the wishful belief that, although the situation in Iraq, or Syria, or Pakistan\* is extremely complicated, although it’s about people of different religions fighting each other, although their scriptures order death for apostates and glorify in martyrdom, although a truly religious person believes their religion explains the _true nature of the universe_, religion has absolutely _no_ influence in this matter. These people are blowing themselves up in marketplaces and funerals because they believe in their politics so much that they’ll die for it. Blowing up families is just that politically important that it’s worth giving their lives for. Only doing this will satisfy their political, completely unrelated to religion, vision for their country. The funny thing is, if you hypothesize religion as a major (I’ve never said only) causal factor, all these inconsistencies suddenly disappear and the actions of these people actually make sense. Maybe they blow themselves up at funerals, along with people of another religion, because (among others reason) they believe God wants apostates dead and martyrs go to paradise. But no, of course not. They must all just be idiots who see suicide bombing of civilians as an effective means to fix their country. \*Here there has been no invasion or overthrow - I’d be interested to see the new logical gymnastic routine you’ll use to excuse religion from this. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941/174 "2013-06-19T14:19:15Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Other than France, I don’t know of any countries that have a separation of Church and State. > > Beyond that there are several, such as Denmark, which have official state religions. > > Like I said, “non-secular” does not mean “non-theocracy.” Having an “official” state religion is usually just a left-over from the 19th century or so. Seperation between Church and state means no \*direct influence \*of the church in the government. You will still find religious _political parties_, but today they tend to represent very minor samples of the population. Then there are bigger parties that still carry the name “Christian” in their name, like the German CDU, but that is also a vestige from about half a century ago.. In any case, since the 70’s, Christianity (whether Catholic or protestant) has practically ceased to play a role in daily or political life in most of Europe. European churches haven’t had a say in policy making since well before that. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941/175 "2013-06-19T15:46:53Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Having an “official” state religion is usually just a left-over from the 19th century or so. > Seperation between Church and state means no \*direct influence \*of the church in the government. > > You will still find religious _political parties_, but today they tend to represent very minor samples of the population. Then there are bigger parties that still carry the name “Christian” in their name, like the German CDU, but that is also a vestige from about half a century ago.. > > In any case, since the 70’s, Christianity (whether Catholic or protestant) has practically ceased to play a role in daily or political life in most of Europe. > European churches haven’t had a say in policy making since well before that. I’m not saying that they are democracies just that it’s improper to call them “secular”. As I said non-secular doesn’t mean bad. For example I like Canada but its certainly not a secular country. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941/176 "2013-06-19T15:52:09Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > For example I like Canada but its certainly not a secular country. I don’t think they arrest Jews when they get off the plane or anything like that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941/177 "2013-06-19T20:55:10Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > . . . We, in the UK, don’t feel the need to change the fact that the country is nominally of a certain religion, or that the monarch has far too much power, because we effectively operate 99% of the time as if there is no official religion or monarch. We’ve had hundreds of years to get to this point. Any new government in Syria is going to have to deal with a level of instability we haven’t seen in the UK for centuries. If we had such instability there would be a serious risk of Prince Charles inheriting the throne and exploiting the fact that he would be officially the commander-in-chief of all our armed forces. Therefore, while I don’t see a need for us to change our system as it stands, I would never advocate it when writing a new constitution. . . . Excellent point. The system, as it exists, has a lot of subtle safeguards, things that many people might not even be aware of. The are courts who would stop a runaway monarch, and, ultimately, the military would probably just (politely) refuse to follow his orders. In Cairo, meanwhile, the new President has pretty much unilaterally removed huge swaths of supposed constitutional protections and rights. And a lot of people will surely remember the old Soviet Union’s constitution, which was a very reasonable document, with many rights and protections built into it – and was as dead as Hesiod. The U.S. isn’t totally a secular nation; we still have a Congressional Chaplain, and “God” stamped on all our money. But such a very small degree of ceremonial deism isn’t the problem, nor is the problem those jackasses who put up Ten Commandments plaques in courtrooms. In the U.S., the problem is people like those in Tennessee who tried to block a mosque from being built, right down to the level of committing arson on the structure. Our constitution guarantees freedom of religion…but, at least at times and in small subsets, “We The People” do not. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941/178 "2013-06-19T21:00:35Z")
[QUOTE=Trinopus] In the U.S., the problem is people like those in Tennessee who tried to block a mosque from being built, right down to the level of committing arson on the structure. Our constitution guarantees freedom of religion…but, at least at times and in small subsets, “We The People” do not. [/QUOTE] Ultimately, were they able to block it? I have no idea, but I’m guessing not…and I’m guessing that if they were caught they went to prison. So, even in the small subset, we do, ultimately…and certainly at the macro level we do, as much that might be got away with in the very small subset wouldn’t be acceptable at the that level…and they probably won’t even get away with it long at the smallest subset level either, in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941/179 "2013-06-20T12:37:47Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Ultimately, were they able to block it? I have no idea, but I’m guessing not…and I’m guessing that if they were caught they went to prison. So, even in the small subset, we do, ultimately…and certainly at the macro level we do, as much that might be got away with in the very small subset wouldn’t be acceptable at the that level…and they probably won’t even get away with it long at the smallest subset level either, in the long run. No, the Islamic Center [was completed.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Center_of_Murfreesboro#Litigation_and_attacks_against_the_ICM) As was the Islamic center at Park51, the so-called Ground Zero Mosque (the larger community center remains in the planning stage). ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941/180 "2013-06-20T16:09:42Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > No, the Islamic Center [was completed.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Center_of_Murfreesboro#Litigation_and_attacks_against_the_ICM) . . . True, but it doesn’t always have a happy ending. Protests by bigots have, in the past, succeeded in driving others out of town, preventing churches or mosques from being built, and, in a few cases, ended in people’s deaths. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-to-provide-military-assistance-to-syrian-rebels/660941.md?page=10)