# U.S. vs. E.U. -- Who wins? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 3, 2009, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150 "2009-08-03T08:48:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150/81 "2009-08-04T22:16:39Z")
Since this is an exercise in pure speculation: Argentina takes Las Malvinas\* back. Dominican Republic takes Puerto Rico\*\*. Cuba kicks the US out of Guantanamo. Grenada declares war against the US\*\*\*. Mexico sends covert operatives into Texas, New Mexico, California and Arizona. - Formerly Falkland Islands \*\* We’re half there anyways. \*\*\* Nobody notices. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150/82 "2009-08-05T07:00:52Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > In the impossible scenario where the United States and Britain fall out, hostilities ensue, and war is declared, who wins the resultant war? The United States or the European Union? Let’s assume that the nuclear option on both sides is off the table. Its better for nukes to remain on the table, while I doubt that the US would require nukes , you can make an argument for the Euros to be thinking a few nuclear strikes while they still have the capability would be an advantage. > [@Erdosain](#): > > Would Russia remain neutral to let us do maximum damage to each other, or have years of participation in Eurovision won them over to the Euro side? Will Switzerland, Norway, and Iceland remain neutral? There is no way we would let them remain neutral, in this case its to our advantage to blackmail them with nukes to keep the gas fields and oil reserves out of continental europe. Add to that the Russians have SLBMs and SLCM subs, plus their few aircraft carriers. Leaving them neutral **now** allows them to swing either way, which would decide the conflict, I am pretty sure that the Euros would be thinking the same way. > [@Erdosain](#): > > Do the U.S. and Europe share military satellites that could be turned off for one side or the other? Do any European navies use our AEGIS system? If so, can we turn it off? Russia comes in on the side of the EU and they can use their own system, otherwise most of all weapons systems have secondary nav capabilities. The EU navy assets from France , Britain and Germany can tie into the AEGIS system, but can probably be recoded to deny any entry into the system. > [@Erdosain](#): > > **RedFury** posted some interesting stats about Europe having the larger military, but surely it will be difficult to coordinate all those nationalities. Not really that hard to co-ordinate, as for the most part your looking at either militaries that have worked with each other previously , or relegated to air defense. > [@Erdosain](#): > > Also, I have a hard time believing the Italian army will do any good. I seem to remember a (probably apocryphal) news story about them sending a division of light armor to Somalia and having to turn back after getting lost and running out of cappuccino. A lot of similar countries probably have decent-sized militaries, but not a lot of recent experience in using them. I honestly think that you are giving the Italians a bad rap, when it came to Desert Storm, the Italian airforce took heavy casualties when it went downtown in Bagdad, where as the German airforce was loathe to even get close to any sort of conflict, not to mention that Italian guy that had his head separated in Iraq, going out with style, stating this is how an Italian dies, makes me want to not pigeon hole them into the old style Italian Admiral and glass bottom boat jokes. > [@Erdosain](#): > > Someone on the other thread mentioned U.S. bases in Germany, Britain, Italy, Greece, and Turkey, but it seems to me that they’d all be swallowed up rather quickly due to cut supply lines and weak (or non-existant) perimeter defenses. Alot of those bases were designed around the idea that the Russians might have overwhelmed them , given that the Euro war would not be a bolt out of the blue , its likely that Brussels would have demanded that the US forces be removed , given enough time any remaining equipment could probably be de milled. > [@Erdosain](#): > > I think the U.S. could get a toe-hold somewhere in Europe (Iberia?), but certainly not have much success otherwise, due to the logistical nightmare that such a war would be. What do other war-minded Dopers think? There is another thread regarding the destruction of vehicle engines in the cash for clunkers program, to do this , you add a cocktail of water , silica, and something else , let the engine run and it seizes. The US campaign in the EU theatre would probably resemble this. Its really about which EU member nation caves first, I dont think that a collective of nations could maintain a cohesive force for long. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150/83 "2009-08-05T07:04:38Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Let’s be absurdly optimistic and say we could raise, train and equip a large enough invasion force in one year. Would Canadians sit on their hands for that year? Of course not! Canada’s universities have plenty of smart physicists, Canada has plenty of natural resources, and they could put together a **nuclear arsenal** in short order if they had to. I can just imagine the green partys reaction to this > [@astorian](#): > > And while Canada’s Army isn’t huge, I have no doubt their elite forces are good enough to make an invasion costly, at least for a while. Costly enough that Americans would have to ask, “Was there REALLY any need for this???” Um, the American Govt just has to close the borders and we grind to a halt. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150/84 "2009-08-05T07:12:17Z")
> [@lemac](#): > > China wins. You really believe that the USA or Russia would let China come out as top dog ?? or India for that matter. Its really why nukes cannot remain off the table, in the OP. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150/85 "2009-08-05T07:51:30Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Its really about which EU member nation caves first, I dont think that a collective of nations could maintain a cohesive force for long. I think they probably could actually; nothing firms up alliances like being attacked by an enemy who can squash any of you separately. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150/86 "2009-08-05T11:49:56Z")
**DT** I think you’re probably right ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150/87 "2009-08-05T11:58:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I think they probably could actually; nothing firms up alliances like being attacked by an enemy who can squash any of you separately. Agreed. So if the US feels like they can attack, and beat, 27 countries simultaneously, hey, you go for it! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150/88 "2009-08-05T12:29:22Z")
Irresistible force (the U.S.) meets immovable object (the E.U.). I can see the U.S. attempting to gain some sort of initiative in the offensive sense, but if the UK is hostile there’s really no practical way to do it… Unless… you take the Azores as a staging ground to invade Portugal, the U.S. Navy would win this scrap, thus leaving naval superiority (and air, if they can fix up a base on the Azores) for an invasion of Europe proper. Here comes the but - even if the U.S. somehow pulled this off, they’ve nowhere to go. They could take down Portugal, Spain would be a tougher nut to crack (especially with European reinforcements pouring in from the Med and over the Pyranees, whilst the U.S. is forced to rely on reinforcements sent across the Atlantic). Even if the battle for Spain is won, then what? Move on to France, Germany, the U.K., Poland? Not a hope in hell - there isn’t the manpower to secure the entire E.U. (or even a part of it). Redirect U.S. forces out of Iberia, and Spain and Portugal are back in the game. These are nations that have existed for a long time, capitulation wouldn’t be an option in the face of foreign invasion. I can’t see any logical options but for; 1. The two sides immediately haemorrhage a load of money due to the collapse of transatlantic investments and trade suddenly dying, the world enters a economic downturn that makes the Depression look tame, spending more money on war a bad idea and the two sides begrudgingly patch things up. 2. The far-fetched scenario outlined in my main paragraph; the U.S. realises it can’t possibly take the whole E.U., the E.U. knows it has no hope of defeating the U.S. Weary of casualties a ceasefire is signed. U.S. possibly comes out on top by trading U.S. footholds and enclaves for E.U. concessions. 3. The war drags on as described, U.S. first strike reduces Europe to cinders, U.K. and French subs then do the same to the U.S. Thirty years later the rest of the world is known as “Greater China”. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150/89 "2009-08-05T14:29:18Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > I can just imagine the green partys reaction to this > > Um, the American Govt just has to close the borders and we grind to a halt. > > Declan Hold it- we have to conquer/occupy the entire continent of Europe AND simultaneously lock down a 3,000 mile border? I think you might be giving us just a BIT too much credit! We’d need several million more trained, armed men to do either of those things, let alone both! ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150/90 "2009-08-05T14:58:58Z")
See the thing is this: The USA is just over 200 years old, Europe is 1000s of years ahead of you guys in warfare. We’re past masters at wholesale killing, burning of cities, massacre of civilians not to mention torture of whomever gets on our tits. Collateral damage?.. fuck that, we don’t give a shit who gets killed or which town or city or village or hamlet gets offed. The USA is too concerned about collateral and this is where we have you beat. I suggest you just surrender now before we send in the Spanish Inquisition, you weren’t expecting that, were you? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150/91 "2009-08-05T15:08:45Z")
> [@chowder](#): > > We’re past masters at wholesale killing, burning of cities, massacre of civilians not to mention torture of whomever gets on our tits. > > Collateral damage?.. fuck that, we don’t give a shit who gets killed or which town or city or village or hamlet gets offed. Yes, but you’ve really gone soft in the last couple of decades. I mean, it used to be all about the pillaging and bludgeoning, but now the best you can do is a street protest against genetically modified foods. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150/92 "2009-08-05T15:14:12Z")
> [@chowder](#): > > See the thing is this: > > The USA is just over 200 years old, Europe is 1000s of years ahead of you guys in warfare. > > We’re past masters at wholesale killing, burning of cities, massacre of civilians not to mention torture of whomever gets on our tits. > > Collateral damage?.. fuck that, we don’t give a shit who gets killed or which town or city or village or hamlet gets offed. The USA is too concerned about collateral and this is where we have you beat. > > I suggest you just surrender now before we send in the Spanish Inquisition, you weren’t expecting that, were you? And not forgetting alcohol as a force for strength. You just can’t win battles with teetotal bible thumpers. Why the UK alone, with our proud history of dipsomania, will whip the US with our unencumbered violence, bravery and patriotic sentimentality (I wuv you EeeYooo). ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150/93 "2009-08-05T15:17:13Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Yes, but you’ve really gone soft in the last couple of decades. I mean, it used to be all about the pillaging and bludgeoning, but now the best you can do is a street protest against genetically modified foods. Oh. I don’t know. We had a respectable slaughter down in the Balkans. Plenty of pillaging and bludgeoning. Murder, rape and genocide. And other wholesome fun. I’m sure they’re itching for another go. Another little brawl over in the Caucasus. Putin could have done so much more if we had let him. A proper leader don’t talk about rubbish like hopeandchange, he threaten to hang his neighbours by the balls. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150/94 "2009-08-05T15:18:18Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > And not forgetting alcohol as a force for strength. You just can’t win battles with teetotal bible thumpers. Why the UK alone, with our proud history of dipsomania, will whip the US with our unencumbered violence, bravery and patriotic sentimentality (I wuv you EeeYooo). And if required we can allus call on ex-footie hooligans to really give those Merkins a good sound thrashing. Innit? ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150/95 "2009-08-05T16:53:54Z")
> [@chowder](#): > > And if required we can allus call on ex-footie hooligans to really give those Merkins a good sound thrashing. > > Innit? The feared 42nd Royal Hooligans regiment? Simple: we bomb the cider factory. Good luck getting any mayhem out of that lot without Frosty Jack’s. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150/96 "2009-08-05T17:30:41Z")
Cider? Those guys aint called Lager Louts for nothing ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150/97 "2009-08-05T17:42:24Z")
We all know a war between the US and Europe would be horrible, but it does present an opportunity to once and for all which sport deserves to be called football. ---
**Author:** ![clnilsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecccb3/32.png) [@clnilsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clnilsen)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150/98 "2009-08-05T19:00:27Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > There are no circumstances imaginable under which Russia will fight a war on the same side as Germany. Period, end of story. Yes there are. When Mars Attacks.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150/99 "2009-08-05T20:36:07Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > We all know a war between the US and Europe would be horrible, but it does present an opportunity to once and for all which sport deserves to be called football. I’m afraid the US would be fighting more than just Europe on that one. It would be fighting the _entire world_. 350 million people vs. 7 billion… You guys really are in a teeny tiny insy winsy minority on this one. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150/100 "2009-08-06T00:36:23Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > I’m afraid the US would be fighting more than just Europe on that one. It would be fighting the _entire world_. 350 million people vs. 7 billion… > > You guys really are in a teeny tiny insy winsy minority on this one. 🙂 China and India, the two biggest countries in the world, couldn’t give a rat’s ass about EITHER type of football. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-vs-e-u-who-wins/505150.md?page=6)