# U.S. War Crimes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2001, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391 "2001-09-23T21:40:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HairyPotter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@HairyPotter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HairyPotter)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/1 "2001-09-23T21:40:22Z")
The following is an excerpt from the book “War Crimes, a Report on United States War Crimes Against Iraq” by Ramsey Clark, former U.S. Attorney General, and others: \*"The Commission of Inquiry for an International War Crimes Tribunal was initiated by Ramsey Clark and the Coalition to Stop U.S. Intervention in the Middle East. Former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark travelled 2,000 miles through Iraq during a time when the U.S. was running up to 3,000 bombing sorties a day. He first documented the systematic destruction of the civilian infrastructure, a view later confirmed by the UN’s own team of investigators. Tribunal delegates came from 33 countries. International media covered the public Tribunal with 1500 observers packing a hall in New York City to hear evidence of U.S. war crimes. The major U.S. media did not cover the tribunal at all. Among other findings, the Tribunal found that President Bush ordered the destruction of facilities essential to civilian life and economic productivity throughout Iraq. The United States reports it flew 1110,000 air sorties against Iraq, dropping 88,000 tons of bombs, nearly seven times the equivalent of the atomic bomb that destroyed Hiroshima. 93% of the bombs were free falling bombs, most dropped from higher than 30,000 feet. Of the remaining 7% of the bombs with electronically guided systems, more than 25% missed their targets, nearly all caused damage primariuly beyond any identifiable target. Most of the targets were civilian facilities."\* During the Gulf War, George Bush Sr. maintained that “smart bombs” and other advanced technology were being used in order to focus on military targets and minimize civilian casulties. If the above findings are correct, the citizens of the U.S. were misled and the operations actually being carried out by the U.S. military bore little resemblence to the speeches and news reports being presented to the public. Approaching the Afghanistan conflict, we have George Bush, Jr., along with many of the senior staff of advisors during the Gulf War, planning the actions to take place, and giving speeches to the public regarding how they plan to conduct their military operations. I happen to believe in the integrity of the findings of the above War Crimes Tribunal. I also happen to believe that George Bush, Jr. and his senior staff, occupied with many of his father’s key advisors, is very likely to conduct military operations that bear little resemblance to the impressive speeches that have been presented to the public. I would be very interested in hearing the views of other Dopers. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/2 "2001-09-23T21:45:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by HairyPotter \* > \*\* I happen to believe in the integrity of the findings of the above War Crimes Tribunal. \*\* It sure sounds like a group with an ax to grind, rather than some official, impartial investigatory commission. Why do you believe in the integrity of this group, HP? Why should their report be taken seriously? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/3 "2001-09-23T21:54:59Z")
> [@](#): > > George Bush, Jr. Who? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/4 "2001-09-23T22:00:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by HairyPotter \* > \*\* > > Among other findings, the Tribunal found that President Bush ordered the destruction of facilities essential to civilian life and economic productivity throughout Iraq. \*\* Since when was it a war crime to economically cripple the country you’re fighting? If I cripple you economically then you’ll have a hard time buying tanks, bullets, and other objects which might help your war effort. Sounds like a legitimate strategy to me. And all those faculties which were essential to civilian life. Were any of them at all useful to the military effort? What specific war crimes is this tribunal accusing the US of? [quote] \*\* Of the remaining 7% of the bombs with electronically guided systems, more than 25% missed their targets, nearly all caused damage primariuly beyond any identifiable target. Most of the targets were civilian facilities."\* Let’s face it if you start dropping bombs some of them are going to miss. Is this a war crime now? Marc ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/5 "2001-09-23T22:18:31Z")
> [@](#): > > _“…The United States reports it flew 1110,000 air sorties against Iraq, dropping 88,000 tons of bombs, nearly seven times the equivalent of the atomic bomb that destroyed Hiroshima. 93% of the bombs were free falling bombs, most dropped from higher than 30,000 feet…”_ I’m not really sure the total tonnage of bombs is particularly relevant to anything. (It reminds me a bit of that Timothy McVeigh biography cranked out by a couple of journalists which pointed out that his truck bomb _weighed_ as much as the bomb dropped on Hiroshima.) The point would be, where and how were those bombs be used? Yes, most of the bombs the U.S. dropped were unguided old-fashioned bombs dropped from B-52’s. But that doesn’t mean we were necessarily carpet-bombing downtown Baghdad. Carpet-bombing helpless Iraqi farmboys–who also happen to be (probably conscripted) Iraqi soldiers who are dug in way the hell and gone out in the desert–_won’t_ cause many (if any) _civilian_ casualties, and while it does a lot of gruesome things to the poor hapless human beings who are stuck in the Iraqi Army, merely doing gruesome things to enemy soldiers is not and never has been a war crime. The expensive, fancy, laser-guided bombs and cruise missiles were reserved for the targets that _were_ in downtown Baghdad, where getting within a few football fields of the target wasn’t good enough–because the target was a single building in the middle of large city. > [@](#): > > During the Gulf War, George Bush Sr. maintained that “smart bombs” and other advanced technology were being used in order to focus on military targets and minimize civilian casulties. If the above findings are correct, the citizens of the U.S. were misled and the operations actually being carried out by the U.S. military bore little resemblence to the speeches and news reports being presented to the public. No–if we used “smart bombs” on targets in Baghdad, and “dumb bombs” on massed troop formations in the desert, then we were indeed using advanced technology to focus on military targets and minimize civilian casualties. It probably _is_ true that our propaganda focused on pictures of the antiseptic destruction of buildings rather than showing people (even enemy soldiers) being blown to bits, which may have implied–to people who weren’t thinking about it very much–that not only were Allied casualties very low, and not only were we taking pains to minimize civilian casualties, but that somehow we were fighting the war without hurting _anybody_. ---
**Author:** ![schplebordnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/91b2a8/32.png) [@schplebordnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/schplebordnik)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/6 "2001-09-23T22:24:38Z")
Ramsey Clark. Is he a credible spokesperson? Decide for yourself: [http://members.tripod.com/codemage/appeal.htm](http://members.tripod.com/codemage/appeal.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/7 "2001-09-23T22:30:17Z")
Please read [this](http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/docs/cpgw6/cpgw_ch6_plan.htm). This plan, which clearly laid out what “civilian targets” would be struck, is what I remember George Bush (41) talking about. I think if you research you will find a “military value” test is used in international war crimes law. Going after “civilian infrastructure” as opposed to civilian residential areas makes a difference. Some background on your source,[here](http://shadow.autono.net/sin001/clark.htm) and [here](http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/06/21/clark/). He seems to like _some_ war criminals. Saddam, for one, who used poison gas on his own people. Where is the outrage? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/8 "2001-09-23T23:05:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by schplebordnik \* > \*\*Ramsey Clark. Is he a credible spokesperson? Decide for yourself: > > [http://members.tripod.com/codemage/appeal.htm](http://members.tripod.com/codemage/appeal.htm) \*\* If Clark actually said this, it would be sedition. This Ramsey Clark War Crimes Tribunal thing has been sitting around on Usenet since time immemorial. The “War Crimes Tribunal” it refers to is not actually part of the UN or the Hague convention or anything else official; it’s a political organization opposed to the United States’s foreign policy, and as such isn’t really a “Tribunal” at all. Clark detests the U.S. government for firing his sorry ass in the 60’s, when he helped J. Edgar Hoover do a variety of offensive and disgusting things. In 1980 - 21 years ago, 11 years before the Gulf War - he chaired a “Tribunal” in Tehran during the hostage crisis called “Crimes of America.” He advised Qaddafi in 1986 and in 1989 represented Nutbar Supremus Lyndon LaRouche in a mail fraud case. Later he went abroad and claimed that the U.S. was prosecuting LaRouche because LaRouche was a serious threat to topple the government. I swear to God I’m not making this up. Later in 1990, Clark signed on the represent a Stalinist group called the Workers’ World Party which not only opposed everything the U.S. did, but supported Kremlin hardliners who were against the USSR adopting democracy and freedom. Later he supported the Hutu ringleaders of the 1994 Rwanda massacre. Clark is a liar and a traitor, and can’t be trusted to tell you the correct time. He is, absolutely and without question, the LEAST credible human being involved in international politics today, and maybe ever; he is certainly the worst possible “Expert” you could ever cite to support an argument. There isn’t a war criminal in the world Clark hasn’t personally cuddled up to, which goes a long way towards explaining why he’s forever accusing the U.S. of being war criminals; you always project your faults onto others. If Ramsey Clark supports something, it’s probably something worth destroying. ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/9 "2001-09-23T23:42:47Z")
I like it when folks cite Ramsey Clark. I’ve debunked his crap so often that I no longer even feel the need to look at his latest pile of ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![HairyPotter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@HairyPotter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HairyPotter)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2001, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/10 "2001-09-23T23:52:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*Please read [this](http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/docs/cpgw6/cpgw_ch6_plan.htm). This plan, which clearly laid out what “civilian targets” would be struck, is what I remember George Bush (41) talking about. > > I think if you research you will find a “military value” test is used in international war crimes law. Going after “civilian infrastructure” as opposed to civilian residential areas makes a difference. > > Some background on your source,[here](http://shadow.autono.net/sin001/clark.htm) and [here](http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/06/21/clark/). > > He seems to like _some_ war criminals. Saddam, for one, who used poison gas on his own people. Where is the outrage? \*\* Beagle, I looked up the links you provided on Ramsey Clark, and they certainly do make him sound like a highly questionable source. I appreciate you pointing me to background on Clark of which I had been unaware. ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2001, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/11 "2001-09-24T12:06:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by HairyPotter \* > > I looked up the links you provided on Ramsey Clark, and they certainly do make him sound like a highly questionable source. I appreciate you pointing me to background on Clark of which I had been unaware. My respect for you just went up. ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2001, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/12 "2001-09-24T14:38:05Z")
I would like to point out that Ramsey Clark is not the only person to have documented the impact of the Gulf War on Iraqi civilians and the Iraqi infrastructure. So far as I know, this is not disputed by anyone, although Americans rarely read about it in mainstream media. What some of you have demonstrated is that 1) as a peace activist Clark feels justified in urging US troops to disobey orders; and 2) that a left-wing alternative publication (_The Shadow_), about which I know almost nothing, finds Clark’s motives and past on a wide range of issues dubious. As to #1–I personally don’t advocate that kind of activism; among other problems, I think it’s unfair to the troops. So I would agree that if Ramsey Clark were being cited as on authority on how to deal with troops in time of war, he would represent a very controversial position or tactic. As to 2–The Shadow seems interesting–but they do not seem a likely publication to disagree with the undisputed fact that the Gulf War (as well as post-Gulf War US policy on Iraq) has been very harsh on Iraqi civilians. Indeed, does anyone here disagree with that fact? The Shadow doesn’t seem to have published anything on the Gulf War but here’s an excerpt from something not entirely irrelevant. _“Drugs, weapons and money laundering have always been tools of the trade for U.S. clandestine operations abroad. But never in United States history has the importation of cocaine risen so dramatically as it did during the Reagan Administration’s clandestine war against the government of Nicaragua, spear-headed by the “contras,” a group of right-wing expatriate rebels pieced together by the CIA.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2001, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/13 "2001-09-24T18:59:22Z")
Mandelstam, what about the Salon article? Did you read that one? The fact is, Ramsey Clark is a joke. Citing him on US war crimes is like citing Osama bin Ladin. He is a toady of dictators and fascists. Of course the Gulf War was hard on Iraqi civilians. Their dictator started a war and lost. That’s going to hurt, no matter what. But what about the effects of the embargo? Doesn’t that starve thousands of Iraqi children? Um, no. We allow shipments of food and medicine to Iraq. But the trouble is, that food and medicine never gets to the people. The dictatorship is smuggling food OUT of Iraq, to sell. Every person in Iraq who is starving is a victim of the Iraqi dictatorship. It is simply not true that the US and our allies are not allowing food to enter Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2001, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/14 "2001-09-24T19:59:24Z")
**Lemur** , allow me further to clarify lest my relation to the OP not be misunderstood. I have no investment in Ramsey Clark. (Nor for that matter do I care to weigh in on the question of whether certain acts do or don’t qualify as “war crimes.”) My point was only that the excerpt posted by **Hairy** more or less tallies with an account of the impact of Gulf War that is not, so far as I know, in dispute. If I saw E=mc 2 posted on this message board I would recognize it as part of the theory of relativity whether it was posted by Einstein himself or by an escaped lunatic. You seem to take for granted that it’s ethical to harm the Iraqi people so severely b/c “their dictator” started a war. Some, however would counter that the alleged point of the Gulf War was to get Saddam out of Kuwait, and not to punish the Iraqi people for the actions of a leader over whom they–as you seem to recognize–have no control. From a purely pragmatic perspective, one has to ask, what was achieved? As to your allegations with regard to the sanctions on Iraq, you’re going to have provide a source for that. ---
**Author:** ![curious\_george](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b487fb/32.png) [@curious\_george](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curious_george)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2001, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/15 "2001-09-24T21:26:10Z")
re: US war crimes [http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=11463](http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=11463) America’s Terrorist Roots \, [WorkingForChange.com](http://WorkingForChange.com) September 11, 2001 “Throughout the world, on any given day, a man, woman, or child is likely to be displaced, tortured, killed, or ‘disappeared’, at the hands of governments or armed political groups. More often than not, the United States shares the blame.” – Amnesty International, 1996 … As people recoil in horror at what is undeniably, well, a horror and tragedy, and as the U.S. undoubtedly starts to mount retaliatory attacks, here are a few brief reminders of how we got here. … Yesterday, Henry Kissinger was facing accusations…of being a war criminal. He’s not alone. Here’s a short list of additional recent American war criminals-- essentially the American leaders of the last decades: William Clinton, former President, for 78 days and nights of bombing the civilians of Yugoslavia (carried out by U.S. Gen. Wesley Clark under NATO auspices); continuation of sanctions and rocket attacks upon the people of Iraq; and illegal bombings of Somalia, Bosnia, Sudan, and Afghanistan. Gen. Colin Powell, Secretary of State, for his leading role in the attacks on Panama, Iraq, and covering up My Lai. George Bush, former President, for the murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians, and thousands of Panamanian civilians (along with kidnapping the country’s leader, a former CIA protégé).Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, former Commander in Chief, U.S. Central Command, for his role in attacking Iraqi civilians. Ronald Reagan, former President, for illegal attacks on El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Grenada, and Libya. Elliot Abrams, former Assistant Secretary of State (and back in the new Bush Administration), for overseeing much of the death and fascism in Central America. Also Casper Weinberger, Secretary of Defense; Lt. Col.Oliver North; and many others. Henry Kissinger, former Secretary of State: Chile, Vietnam, East Timor, Angola, Iraq, and Cambodia. Gerald Ford, former President, for giving approval to Indonesia for the genocide of East Timor. And on, back through the war in Southeast Asia. “War criminal” means just that–inflicting a level of carnage barbaric and unacceptable even in time of war. It does not even begin to touch the many regimes – today, Israel comes to mind – that the U.S. has supported, armed, advised, and even installed, who have inflicted horrors on their own populations. This is a day of complete horror in the history of the United States; and the American public as well as its leaders will demand retribution. Let’s not forget, however, how we got to this day. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2001, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/16 "2001-09-25T00:09:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mandelstam \* > \*\ ***Lemur** , allow me further to clarify lest my relation to the OP not be misunderstood. I have no investment in Ramsey Clark. (Nor for that matter do I care to weigh in on the question of whether certain acts do or don’t qualify as “war crimes.”) My point was only that the excerpt posted by **Hairy** more or less tallies with an account of the impact of Gulf War that is not, so far as I know, in dispute. If I saw E=mc 2 posted on this message board I would recognize it as part of the theory of relativity whether it was posted by Einstein himself or by an escaped lunatic. \*\* Right. I just wanted to make sure that no one took Clark seriously, and I in no way wanted to imply that you do. And of course sometimes Clark must say something true, if only via the law of large numbers. > [@](#): > > \*\* > You seem to take for granted that it’s ethical to harm the Iraqi people so severely b/c “their dictator” started a war. Some, however would counter that the alleged point of the Gulf War was to get Saddam out of Kuwait, and not to punish the Iraqi people for the actions of a leader over whom they–as you seem to recognize–have no control. \*\* Yes, but how are you going to get the Iraqi military to abandon the invasion of Kuwait without using military force? When we attacked Japan and Germany we had to attack their soldiers and infrastructure. It doesn’t matter that perhaps most of the enemy soldiers we shot at were not responsible for the actions of their government. Shooting soldiers and dropping bombs are NOT war crimes. Engaging in wars that you disagree with is NOT a war crime. You seem to imply that prosecuting a war is by definition a war crime. But that is not true. War != to war crime. Fighting the Iraqi army was not a war crime, so stop pretending it was. Destroying Iraqi infrastructure, even though that destruction had a high probability of killing civilians was not a war crime, so stop pretending that it was. You are certainly free to believe that it was _wrong_. You are certainly free to believe that it was a _mistake_. But it was _not_ a war crime. > [@](#): > > [b[ > From a purely pragmatic perspective, one has to ask, what was achieved? > > As to your allegations with regard to the sanctions on Iraq, you’re going to have provide a source for that. \*\* Well, The Iraqi army was removed from Kuwait, and the status quo ante was restored. And given that this was the stated goal of the war, then it was successful, no? You and I know that the coalition probably couldn’t have survived an invasion of Kuwait designed to occupy Baghdad and topple Hussein. Here’s a source from the New Republic about the myths of the sanctions: [http://www.thenewrepublic.com/061801/rubin061801.html](http://www.thenewrepublic.com/061801/rubin061801.html) I admit that in my searches I was shocked by how completely the leftists have fallen for Saddam’s lies. It is not a myth that the Iraqi people suffer. But they suffer because it is useful to Saddam Hussein that they suffer. We allow Iraq to buy food and medicine in exchange for oil. There is no need for starvation in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![schplebordnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/91b2a8/32.png) [@schplebordnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/schplebordnik)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2001, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/17 "2001-09-25T03:18:58Z")
This thread is heading in the direction of another thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=87848&pagenumber=2](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=87848&pagenumber=2) check it out for a vigorous discussion of the crediblity (or lack thereof, depending on your persuasion) of the “U.S. is a war criminal” issue. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2001, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/18 "2001-09-25T06:35:09Z")
…do you think that the United States needed to oppose the Soviets _lebensraum_ plans anywhere in the world? If so, where? Have you heard of the The Warsaw Pact, Fulda Gap, Stalin, The Iron Curtain, or the Killing Fields? Or, do you just take lists of countries we supposedly attacked for no reason on faith from biased, admittedly communist, sources? Geov Parrish is a communist, BTW. Sad fact, even most once communist countries have given up on it. Geov is a little behind. You named so many different U.S. interventions, I thought I would give you a center left (as compared to your source anyway) viewpoint of what actually happened in many of them [here](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/military/etc/cron.html). There are so many unsubstantiated claims in what you posted I will just mention two. “Bombing of civilians in Yugoslavia.” Sure, some civilians were bombed, but we were bombing to protect those civilians, and hitting them was accidental. If we made a mistake, it was not involving ground troops to oppose the _real_ war criminal. I opposed that intervention, but my reasoning was that we would involve Russia and end up in WWIII. I was wrong, whew! Somalia, ah, it was to feed the people of Somalia, a UN operation, and our troops were attacked by militias in part supported by, guess who? Osama Bin Laden. Is bombing in self defense, on a food mission, OK? Apparently not, according to Geov the communist. I would get carpal tunnel syndrome pointing out all the half truths. Is it only a war crime if the United States does it? It sure sounds like it. You are obviously opposed to war generally, fine. Not practical or realistic, but your right. There are laws, treaties, and conventions laying out ACTUAL war crimes, not assuming ALL wars are crimes. To me, that is cheating in the debate. U.S. War Crimes? Yes, every war, ever. Something really strange, why did Geov not mention our bombing of Dresden in WWII, that would have been one of his best arguments. Oh yeah, we were WITH the communists in that one, bombing fascists. Not a war crime then, even if it was not a military target, which it wasn’t. _sigh_ ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2001, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/19 "2001-09-25T07:38:38Z")
A German WWII era term, meaning “living space.” Very similar to the communist belief that once the capitalists were wiped out, THEN communism would work. The Germans just needed a little “elbow room.” Of course, Hitler conquered practically all of Western Europe. Warsaw Pact: involuntary alliance of communist countries in Eastern Europe with Soviet puppet governments. Fulda Gap: where the Soviet and Warsaw Pact forces were once planning to drive their thousands of tanks into Western Europe. Stalin: Killed tens of millions of his own people in the Soviet Union, not to mention what he did elsewhere. Iron Curtain: Winston Churchill invented this term referring to the conquering of Eastern Europe by the Soviets. “An Iron Curtain has descended…” Killing Fields: mass murder (of millions) in Cambodia after the United States left Southeast Asia, and it fell into communist hands. Geov calls his particular brand of communism “anarchy.” Wonder why?, Couldn’t be because communism is largely discredited as a system. So, he is not really an “admitted communist.” In [this](http://www.leninism.org/stream/99/frank.asp) an _admitted_ communist says Geov does **more** to get the “slogans” out than they do. (emphasis theirs) He nitpicks that Geov is really a social-democrat. Whatever. So I guess Geov is a lying, communistic, social-democratic anarchist. Add a question mark in the Dresden sentence. OK, all better now. ---
**Author:** ![curious\_george](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b487fb/32.png) [@curious\_george](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curious_george)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2001, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/20 "2001-10-02T22:19:35Z")
Beagle, you make some good points and probably know more about this topic than me. However, the US has been involved in a lot of questionable military activities and wars in the last 100 years or so. Some are on this list: From: Z. G. \<[mtn@igc.org](mailto:mtn@igc.org)\> PLEASE CIRCULATE +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ A CENTURY OF U.S. MILITARY INTERVENTIONS: From Wounded Knee to Afghanistan Compiled by Z. G. (revised 09/20/01) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The following is a partial list of U.S. military interventions from 1890 to 2001. This guide does NOT include: \*Demonstration duty by military police \*Mobilizations of the National Guard \*Offshore shows of naval strength \*Reinforcements of embassy personnel \*The use of non-Defense Department personnel (such as the DEA) \*Military exercises \*Non-combat mobilizations \*The permanent stationing of armed forces \*Covert actions where the U.S. did not play a command and control role \*The use of small hostage rescue units \*Most uses of proxy troops \*U.S. piloting of foreign warplanes \*Covert operations not directly involving the Dep’t of Defense \*Foreign disaster assistance \*Military training and advisory programs not involving direct combat \*Civic action programs and many other military activities. Among sources used, besides news reports, are the Congressional Record (23 June 1969), 180 Landings by the U.S. Marine Corps History Division, Ege & Makhijani in Counterspy (July-Aug. 1982), and Daniel Ellsberg in Protest & Survive. “Instances of Use of United States Forces Abroad, 1798-1993” by Ellen C. Collier of the Library of Congress Congressional Research Service. SOUTH DAKOTA 1890 (-?) Troops 300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee. ARGENTINA 1890 Troops Buenos Aires interests protected. CHILE 1891 Troops Marines clash with nationalist rebels. HAITI 1891 Troops Black workers revolt on U.S.-claimed Navassa Island defeated. IDAHO 1892 Troops Army suppresses silver miners’ strike. HAWAII 1893 (-?) Naval, troops Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed. CHICAGO 1894 Troops Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed. NICARAGUA 1894 Troops Month-long occupation of Bluefields. CHINA 1894-95 Naval, troops Marines land in Sino-Japanese War. KOREA 1894-96 Troops Marines kept in Seoul during war. PANAMA 1895 Troops, naval Marines land in Colombian province. NICARAGUA 1896 Troops Marines land in port of Corinto. CHINA 1898-1900 Troops Boxer Rebellion fought by foreign armies. PHILIPPINES 1898-1910(-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos. CUBA 1898-1902(-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base. PUERTO RICO 1898(-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, occupation continues. GUAM 1898(-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still use as base. MINNESOTA 1898(-?) Troops Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake. NICARAGUA 1898 Troops Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur. SAMOA 1899(-?) Troops Battle over succession to throne. NICARAGUA 1899 Troops Marines land at port of Bluefields. IDAHO 1899-1901 Troops Army occupies Coeur d’Alene mining region. OKLAHOMA 1901 Troops Army battles Creek Indian revolt. PANAMA 1901-14 Naval, troops Broke off from Colombia 1903, annexed Canal Zone 1914-99. HONDURAS 1903 Troops Marines intervene in revolution. DOMINICAN REP. 1903-04 Troops U.S. interests protected in Revolution. KOREA 1904-05 Troops Marines land in Russo-Japanese War. CUBA 1906-09 Troops Marines land in democratic election. NICARAGUA 1907 Troops “Dollar Diplomacy” protectorate set up. HONDURAS 1907 Troops Marines land during war with Nicaragua. PANAMA 1908 Troops Marines intervene in election contest. NICARAGUA 1910 Troops Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto. HONDURAS 1911 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war. CHINA 1911-41 Naval, troops Continuous occupation with flare-ups. CUBA 1912 Troops U.S. interests protected in Havanna. PANAMA 19l2 Troops Marines land during heated election. HONDURAS 19l2 Troops Marines protect U.S. economic interests. NICARAGUA 1912-33 Troops, bombing 20-year occupation, fought guerrillas. MEXICO 19l3 Naval Americans evacuated during revolution. DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1914 Naval Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo. COLORADO 1914 Troops Breaking of miners’ strike by Army. MEXICO 1914-18 Naval, troops Series of interventions against nationalists. HAITI 1914-34 Troops, bombing 19-year occupation after revolts. DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1916-24 Troops 8-year Marine occupation. CUBA 1917-33 Troops Military occupation, economic protectorate. WORLD WAR I 19l7-18 Naval, troops Ships sunk, fought Germany RUSSIA 1918-22 Naval, troops Five landings to fight Bolsheviks. PANAMA 1918-20 Troops “Police duty” during unrest after elections. YUGOSLAVIA 1919 Troops Marines intervene for Italy against Serbs in Dalmatia. HONDURAS 1919 Troops Marines land during election campaign. GUATEMALA 1920 Troops 2-week intervention against unionists. WEST VIRGINIA 1920-21 Troops, bombing Army intervenes against mineworkers. TURKEY 1922 Troops Fought nationalists in Smyrna (Izmir). CHINA 1922-27 Naval, troops Deployment during nationalist revolt. HONDURAS 1924-25 Troops Landed twice during election strife. PANAMA 1925 Troops Marines suppress general strike. CHINA 1927-34 Troops Marines stationed throughout the country. EL SALVADOR 1932 Naval Warships sent during Farabundo Marti revolt. WASHINGTON DC 1932 Troops Army stops WWI vet bonus protest. WORLD WAR II 1941-45 Naval,troops, bombing, nuclear Fought Axis for 3 years; Over 200,000 civilian casualties in 1st nuclear strikes. DETROIT 1943 Troops Army puts down Black rebellion. IRAN 1946 Nuclear threat Soviet troops told to leave north (Iranian Azerbaijan). YUGOSLAVIA 1946 Naval Response to shooting-down of U.S. plane. URUGUAY 1947 Nuclear threat Bombers deployed as show of strength. GREECE 1947-49 Command operation U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war. CHINA 1948-49 Troops Marines evacuate Americans before Communist victory. GERMANY 1948 Nuclear threat Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift. PHILIPPINES 1948-54 Command operation CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion. PUERTO RICO 1950 Command operation Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce. KOREA 1950-53 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats U.S.& South Korea fight China & North Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in 1950, & vs. China in 1953. Still have bases. IRAN 1953 Command operation CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah. VIETNAM 1954 Nuclear threat Bombs offered to French to use against siege. GUATEMALA 1954 Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat CIA directs exile invasion after new gov’t nationalizes U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua. EGYPT 1956 Nuclear threat, troops Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis; marines evacuate foreigners LEBANON 1958 Troops, naval Marine occupation against rebels. IRAQ 1958 Nuclear threat Iraq warned against invading Kuwait. CHINA 1958 Nuclear threat China told not to move on Taiwan isles. PANAMA 1958 Troops Flag protests erupt into confrontation. VIETNAM 1960-75 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; 1-2 million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in 1968 and 1969. CUBA 1961 Command operation CIA-directed exile invasion fails. GERMANY 1961 Nuclear threat Alert during Berlin Wall crisis. CUBA 1962 Nuclear threat Naval Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with USSR. LAOS 1962 Command operation Military buildup during guerrilla war. PANAMA 1964 Troops Panamanians shot for urging canal’s return. INDONESIA 1965 Command operation Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup. DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66 Troops, bombing Marines land during election campaign. GUATEMALA 1966-67 Command operation Green Berets intervene against rebels. DETROIT 1967 Troops Army battles Blacks, 43 killed. UNITED STATES 1968 Troops After King is shot; over 21,000 soldiers in cities. CAMBODIA 1969-75 Bombing, troops, naval Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos. OMAN 1970 Command operation U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion. LAOS 1971-73 Command operation, bombing U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; “carpet-bombs” countryside. SOUTH DAKOTA 1973 Command operation Army directs Wounded Knee siege of Lakotas. MIDEAST 1973 Nuclear threat World-wide alert during Mideast War. CHILE 1973 Command operation CIA-backed coup ousts elected marxist president. CAMBODIA 1975 Troops, bombing Gas captured ship, 28 die in copter crash. ANGOLA 1976-92 Command operation CIA assists South African-backed rebels. IRAN 1980 Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution. LIBYA 1981 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers. EL SALVADOR 1981-92 Command operation, troop advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash. NICARAGUA 1981-90 Command operation, naval CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution. LEBANON 1982-84 Naval, bombing, troops Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim and Syrian positions. HONDURAS 1983-89 Troops Maneuvers help build bases near borders. GRENADA 1983-84 Troops, bombing invasion four years after revolution. IRAN 1984 Jets Two Iranian jets shot down over Persian Gulf. LIBYA 1986 Bombing, naval Air strikes to topple nationalist gov’t. BOLIVIA 1986 Troops Army assists raids on cocaine region. IRAN 1987-88 Naval, bombing US intervenes on side of Iraq in war. LIBYA 1989 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down. VIRGIN ISLANDS 1989 Troops St. Croix Black unrest after storm. PHILIPPINES 1989 Jets Air cover provided for government against coup. PANAMA 1989-90 Troops, bombing Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed. LIBERIA 1990 Troops Foreigners evacuated during civil war. SAUDI ARABIA 1990-91 Troops, jets Iraq countered after invading Kuwait; 540,000 troops also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel. IRAQ 1990-? Bombing, troops, naval Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes; 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; no-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south, large-scale destruction of Iraqi military. KUWAIT 1991 Naval, bombing, troops Kuwait royal family returned to throne. LOS ANGELES 1992 Troops Army, Marines deployed against anti-police uprising. SOMALIA 1992-94 Troops, naval, bombing U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil war; raids against one Mogadishu faction. YUGOSLAVIA 1992-94 Naval Nato blockade of Serbia and Montenegro. BOSNIA 1993-95 Jets, bombing No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs. HAITI 1994-96 Troops, naval Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup. CROATIA 1995 Bombing Krajina Serb airfields attacked before Croatian offensive. ZAIRE (CONGO) 1996-97 Troops Marines at Rwandan Hutu refuge camps, in area where Congo revolution begins. LIBERIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners. ALBANIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners. SUDAN 1998 Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be “terrorist” nerve gas plant. Over 30, 000 civilian casualties. US blocks UN war-crimes inquiry at the security council. AFGHANISTAN 1998 Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies. IRAQ 1998-? Bombing, Missiles Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions. YUGOSLAVIA 1999-? Bombing, Missiles Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo. Continued U.S. occupation as NATO force in southeastern Kosovo. YEMEN 2000 Naval Suicide bomb attack on USS Cole. MACEDONIA 2001 Troops NATO troops shift and partially disarm Albanian rebels. UNITED STATES 2001 Jets, naval Response to hijacking attacks. AFGHANISTAN 2001 Massive U.S. mobilization to attack Taliban, al-Qaeda forces. War could expand to Iraq, Pakistan, and beyond. * * * For more information or with comments and additions please contact: E-mail: [mtn@igc.org](mailto:mtn@igc.org) Permission to reproduce this list in its entirety is granted by the author, please send any published copy to the above address. Also see: List of U.S. military interventions since 1890 [http://www.zmag.org/CrisesCurEvts/interventions.htm](http://www.zmag.org/CrisesCurEvts/interventions.htm) A briefing on the history of U.S. interventions [http://www.zmag.org/grossmanciv.htm](http://www.zmag.org/grossmanciv.htm) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391.md?page=2)