# U.S. War Crimes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2001, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391 "2001-09-23T21:40:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2001, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/21 "2001-10-03T00:13:46Z")
U.S.S. Cole included among our “questionable” _military interventions_. We were REFUELING! Not exactly a “military” activity at all. I refuse to go through another list of unsubstantiated assertions again, sorry. Make a case for actual **war crimes**. Once again you have included our food mission to Somalia as a “war crime.” The Cuban Missile Crisis?! Los Angeles, 1992?! You have a “five year plan” to give me carpal tunnel syndrome, don’t you? I think you mistake “war” or soldiers / sailors “existing” for “war crimes.” To intentionally **kill civilians when the objective has little or no “military value” is a war crime.** Good example, the bombing of Dresden in WWII, there were only wounded soldiers and no war industries. “Landing” Marines somewhere is NOT a war **crime**. Why? Because they haven’t DONE anything. Could it be a wrongful intervention, an unjust war, or a breach of international law, yes. But it is not a war **crime** to land troops somewhere. If so, every in-port liberty of a naval vessel is a war crime. Oh, wait, you claimed it was (U.S.S. Cole). You really should try to balance out the sources you look at George. You are seriously getting a not-based-in-objective-fact world view. Not to say any source is 100 percent reliable, but what you cited is sketchy, inaccurate, and indicates to me you take too much on faith. Please look at what I [told you about](http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/Joseph_Stalin). Please study the [“lessons of history,”](http://www.mekong.net/cambodia/docs.htm) so you are not [“doomed to repeat it.”](http://www.marxist.com/MiddleEast/Iraq.html) Yeah, Saddam is wonderful, leave him alone.:rolleyes: This, “All history proves that it is impossible to win a war with air power alone…” was true. One little fact you should know, if nothing else… > [@](#): > > Stalin was responsible for the death of as many as 40 million people within the borders of the Soviet Union. ---
**Author:** ![Chas.E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e99b99/32.png) [@Chas.E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chas.E)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2001, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/22 "2001-10-03T03:15:47Z")
Was there a question in the OP somewhere, cause I sure didn’t see anything that indicates any point of debate here. ---
**Author:** ![HairyPotter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@HairyPotter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HairyPotter)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2001, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/23 "2001-10-03T04:59:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chas.E \* > \*\*Was there a question in the OP somewhere, cause I sure didn’t see anything that indicates any point of debate here. \*\* From the OP: > [@](#): > > **I would be very interested in hearing the views of other Dopers.** Not a question, but a request for a variety of alternate perspectives on a topic. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2001, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/24 "2001-10-03T05:43:26Z")
To quote two examples: > [@](#): > > Gerald Ford, former President, for giving approval to Indonesia for the genocide of East Timor. > [@](#): > > William Clinton, former President, for 78 days and nights of bombing the civilians of Yugoslavia Let’s assume these two Presidents had decided to forego their war crimes and take the exact opposite courses. Presumedly then they’d be accused of: > [@](#): > > Gerald Ford, former President, for using military force and imposing economic sanctions against Indonesia. > [@](#): > > William Clinton, former President, for condoning and giving approval to the Yugoslavian massacres in Bosnia ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2001, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/25 "2001-10-03T05:50:48Z")
> [@](#): > > SUDAN > 1998 > Missiles > Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be “terrorist” nerve gas plant. Over 30, 000 civilian casualties. US blocks UN war-crimes inquiry at the security council. I plead, “you posted a freaking novel” for missing this one. You actually have a point here. Was this attack wrong? Yes. Most sources question that this plant had anything to do with nerve gas. I will assume it did not. Still, 30,000 “casualities” from less than 100 cruise missiles, you should know better.[This](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_155000/155252.stm) lists the actual casualties at seven injured. I heard [one may have died](http://timelines.ws/countries/SUDAN.HTML). 30,000 must be someones “consequential damages” extrapolation. [This](http://www.charm.net/~marc/chronicle/mediawise2_apr99.html) explains how the “30,000” figure was probably gues…arrived at. This source, clearly opposed to the attack, does not claim to estimate an actual number. It sure sounds like we killed or injured 30,000 people with missiles in _your_ source. Why does your source, once again, play fast and loose with the facts? Bad attack anyway, no lying was really necessary. We should have rebuilt the plant. There is no shortage of [criticism](http://www.alamo-girl.com/0113.htm) either. War crime? Probably, I would argue that the seven injured and one killed were victims of a war crime. Why? We struck a non-military target and caused civilian casualties. 30,000? That is just a shameful misrepresentation of fact. (to not put an “estimate based on extrapolation and many assumptions” on that figure is really sleazy) Point of debate: U.S. War Crimes. That should do it. We have plenty of “wars” (liberties, blockades, deployments, refueling stops, etc…) to choose from, and plenty of internet sources to claim everyting is a war crime. Ain’t freedom of speech fun? ---
**Author:** ![curious\_george](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b487fb/32.png) [@curious\_george](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curious_george)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/26 "2001-10-05T21:15:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > U.S.S. Cole included among our “questionable” _military interventions_. We were REFUELING! Not exactly a “military” activity at all. I refuse to go through > another list of unsubstantiated assertions again, sorry. Make a case for actual war crimes. Once again you have included our food mission to Somalia as a “war crime.” The Cuban Missile Crisis?! Los Angeles, 1992?! You have a “five year plan” to give me carpal tunnel syndrome, don’t you? Beagle, neither me nor the author of the list said it was a list of War Crimes. It is a “ **List of US Military Interventions** ”. What I said is that among that huge list, there are some that do seem questionable to me, possibly to the point of being a War Crime. Regarding the “30,000 civilian casualties in the 1998 Sudan bombs”, I wrote the author and he said, "Thank you: I don’t know where the hell that figure came from! Someone reposted my list in text form (apparently because people had problem printing my web list). I assumed the list came straight from the website where I had posted it: [http://www.zmag.org/CrisesCurEvts/interventions.htm](http://www.zmag.org/CrisesCurEvts/interventions.htm) On my web list, I have nothing about 30,000 casualties, which is ridiculous. I should have been more careful and seen if something was added to my original list. It looks like the only addition. I will check into this". Good catch, Beagle. The USS Cole is not mentioned on the web page either, but the web page only goes up until 1999. **Moderator** , could you please edit out the part about “30,000 deaths in 1998 Sudan” in my long list above? Better yet, now that I know there is a web page that contains the info, could you delete all or most of my long post with the List of US Military Interventions (leave the intro and ending), and replace it with a reference to the web page: [http://www.zmag.org/CrisesCurEvts/interventions.htm](http://www.zmag.org/CrisesCurEvts/interventions.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/27 "2001-10-06T04:48:15Z")
I’m actually very much in favour of a war crimes tribunal, but haven’t seen very much evidence here of any war crimes. If a country is engaged in a war, and civilians suffer and die as a result, then that is a terrible terrible thing, but not, at law, a war \*crime \*. Firing cruise missiles against terrorsit camps in Sudan is not a war crime either, as I see it. Aiding repressive regimes may be an abhorrent decision of foreign policy, but I am pretty sure this doesn’t fall within the definition of “war crimes” , either. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391/28 "2001-10-06T20:21:12Z")
Well, according to George, any act of war by the US is a War Crime, by definition. I don’t think he understands exactly what a war crime is, but the United States MUST be guilty of them, well, um, just because. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/u-s-war-crimes/83391.md?page=1)