# UBI, basic needs and employment
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [May 2, 2021, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192 "2021-05-02T02:00:55Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2021, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/41 "2021-05-03T20:50:26Z")
> [@DesertDog](#):
>
> What I’d like to see is UBI allowing a decent living but one with no frills. Yeah, you’ll probably wind up with half of them doing nothing but watching football (of either variety) while drinking cheap beer because they can’t afford any better. The other half would go crazy (I know I would) and take the jobs that are left to earn some more coin.
It turns out that most people aren’t as lazy as you think they are. Yes, people take the path of least resistance. But with nothing to do, people will become restless and need to do something. The pandemic has shown that most people become restless during an enforced lock down to some degree.
Make the isolation even more drastic and people will literally shock themselves just to get some stimulation.
> [@](#):
>
> In a famous study [conducted a few years ago at the University of Virginia](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4330241/), participants were led one at a time into a completely bare room with all distractions removed. They had no phone, no books, no screens – and they weren’t allowed to take a nap. Electrodes were fitted to their ankles and they were left alone for 15 minutes. It was an opportunity to kick back and relax for a short while.
>
> So, how did it go? Well, before being left alone, participants were shown how to press a computer key which was wired up to a machine that delivered an electric shock. You might suppose that having tried it once no one would want to do it again. Wrong. In fact, 71% of the men and 25% of the women gave themselves at least one electric shock during their time in solitary – and one man shocked himself a shocking 190 times. It turns out that having nothing to do was so excruciating, that many of the participants preferred to, in effect, torture themselves rather than put up with no distractions whatsoever.
This interesting article shows why people who say that people who have their needs provided for will do nothing are generally wrong. If people are doing nothing, there’s a reason for it that’s not a natural state.
> **[Are human beings naturally lazy?](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200602-are-human-beings-naturally-lazy)**
>
> The current pandemic is forcing much of the world’s population to stay at home and take it easy. But we may not be wired that way, says Claudia Hammond.
---
### Author:  [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2021, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/42 "2021-05-03T21:08:31Z")
> [@Eonwe](#):
>
> To me one of the biggest challenges to an effective UBI is that property ownership and the landlord/tenant relationship around finite residential resources spells, to me, a re-direction of UBI to landlords’ pockets.
>
> I look at what happened this past year with stimulus. At least here, landlords were by in large isolated from the economic crisis. People and small businesses (which I’m less concerned about) who saw incomes drop were scrambling to find money to pay for the roof over their heads. Stimulus money? That’s rent money.
>
> I don’t think UBI is going to inflate the whole economy, at least not in the short term, but I think it is likely to raise rents and property values pretty immediately.
I’ve heard this a lot, following Andrew Yang’s campaign. I don’t know where you live or why people around you are so tied to the place that they can’t move, but in many places, rents actually went down during the pandemic.
San Francisco’s year over year decline in rent prices in Oct. 2020 was 20.7% In NY, it was 15%. [SF Chronicle](https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Rent-prices-drop-again-in-S-F-and-other-Bay-Area-15692584.php)
If people aren’t tied to a place for their jobs because they’re working remotely and they have a minimum income coming in, they’ll move away from the priciest places and move toward the less pricey places. That depresses rent values.
If people can work remotely, they can pool their UBI money together and buy some property so they won’t have to pay a landlord. Let’s say the UBI is $1K. If 3 people got together, they can buy a place with a $3K mortgage which could be big enough for all of them if they go to a place that doesn’t have the highest property values in the country. Over time, they can use the equity to find other places.
---
### Author:  [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2021, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/43 "2021-05-03T21:14:17Z")
Wow, they were shocking themselves after fifteen minutes? I thought _I_ was bad at meditation.
I was perhaps a little flip with my football and cheap beer comment but the point was, people not worried about starving to death in a gutter will spend time doing what they love to do whether it’s chasing stock prices as a day trader, making art, or watching _Judge Judy_. I might feel a little sorry for the last group but if that what they want to do, more power to 'em.
And, yes, **Oredigger** , without UHC $1,000 a month would be untenable.
---
### Author:  [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2021, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/44 "2021-05-03T23:06:00Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#):
>
> So you’re saying that the federal retirement pension that the elderly have paid for for decades will be replaced by a common entitlement benefit that all citizens/residents/adults? will receive without a need to pay into? I’m sceptical the elderly population of the US will buy into that idea.
I certainly wouldn’t. If other people are getting UBI in addition to their current incomes, I would expect mine to be, too. Not to mention that $1000 UBI would be less than my social security cheques.
---
### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2021, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/45 "2021-05-04T00:51:35Z")
> [@Crankyhillbilly](#):
>
> If I were to remodel my house I could just do it. I don’t have to get any permits etc from anyone.
That is YOUR area.
I used to live in a semi-rural, unincorporated part of my Indiana county. They sure as hell DID enforce building codes in my area. I worked several years in construction and with a general contractor so I have some personal knowledge of this.
You’re taking what’s normal in your area and projecting it everywhere. Sorry, your situation is not universal.
---
### Author:  [@Crankyhillbilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crankyhillbilly)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2021, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/46 "2021-05-04T02:11:22Z")
Didn’t say it was universal. My point was that if instead of funding a housing grant that would require my spending a lot of money/time on permits/inspections the govt should just pay UBI and I could then use that money and not need to waste it on bureaucracy. This was an example of a benefit that UBI could provide. This sort of scenario plays out in a lot ways so that ultimately just about everyone would benefit.
---
### Author:  [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2021, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/47 "2021-05-04T02:46:19Z")
I think you’re getting too far in the weeds here. If for no other reason then there are lots of reasons for the government to not want your house to burn down that have nothing to do with our social safety net.
UBi should replace every other form of our government safety net (excepting healthcare) so all of the programs we use to provide goods and services targets at the poor will be able to be removed. Which is why we’ll get rid of social security it’s there to make sure grammy isn’t eating cat food in her old age instead we’ll cut her a check and call it UBI.
---
### Author:  [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2021, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/48 "2021-05-04T03:29:18Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#):
>
> Which is why we’ll get rid of social security it’s there to make sure grammy isn’t eating cat food in her old age instead we’ll cut her a check and call it UBI.
What part of granny paid into Social Security all her life and she is now drawing on that don’t you get? I’m not being given something, something of mine is being returned to me. If you want to to send a UBI check as well, fine. Keep those grubby hands off my money. It’s bad enough that somebody else has had the use of it for 50 some years.
---
### Author:  [@Crankyhillbilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crankyhillbilly)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2021, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/49 "2021-05-04T04:04:09Z")
About 75% or more live off the govt, that’s between SS, social services and govt employees. The 25% that isn’t is mostly getting screwed. They don’t have the income or healthcare that the govt dependent crowd has. UBI doesn’t take anything away from those that have govt funding but makes it fairer for those that don’t.
If you replace SS with the UBI you should also replace govt pensions as well.
---
### Author:  [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2021, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/50 "2021-05-04T04:08:58Z")
> [@Crankyhillbilly](#):
>
> About 75% or more live off the govt, that’s between SS, social services and govt employees
I receive Social Security. I do not ‘live off the government’. Social Security is my money that I am getting returned to me.
---
### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2021, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/51 "2021-05-04T09:30:45Z")
No, it’s not.
There is not a secret bank account with the money you paid every week stacking up, to be mailed to you when you retire. You can’t will your SS to someone else when you die. Sure, a widow/widower or underage children might benefit, but you can’t leave your benefit to your best friend or charity the way you can with your own money. Some people (the disabled) may never pay a dime into SS and yet receive benefits. Some people live longer than expected and get more in benefit than they ever paid in - it’s not like you reach the end of “what you paid in” and then you’re cut off.
If you get SS then YES, YOU ARE RECEIVING A GOVERNMENT BENEFIT. Just like people receiving VA healthcare or unemployment insurance payments or Medicare or food stamps or a mortgage tax deduction.
If the situation wasn’t so damn serious I’d laugh myself silly every time some pensioner with a mortgage tax deduction claims they are completely independent and don’t rely on the damned government for anything. Unless you in the middle of a wilderness in a cabin you built with your own hands and live a subsistence lifestyle you do, in fact, rely on and benefit from government.
---
### Author:  [@Crankyhillbilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crankyhillbilly)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2021, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/52 "2021-05-04T13:58:39Z")
> [@BippityBoppityBoo](#):
>
> I receive Social Security. I do not ‘live off the government’. Social Security is my money that I am getting returned to me.
True it is your money being returned to you but it is at the whim of the govt. If they decide to not send it you couldn’t do a lot about it.
---
### Author:  [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2021, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/53 "2021-05-04T14:33:17Z")
Yes it is BippityBoppityBoo’s money being returned to him. Social Security is principally a government mandated pension scheme. Americans pay into Social Security for decades with the understanding that when they retire, they’ll start receiving payments from that pension.
People stating that a US UBI would replace Social Security are essentially stating that the prior payments into Social Security would be valueless. An 18 year old who had never made a payment into Social Security would receive the same pension as someone who had paid into it for 50 years. My bet is that most of those Social Security recipients would feel like they’d been royally screwed over.
---
### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2021, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/54 "2021-05-04T15:32:06Z")
Depends.
If the new UBI exceeds their current SS allotment they may not be unhappy with that. It all depends on the UBI, doesn’t it?
And so sorry if someone doesn’t get back every penny they paid into SS - like I said, you can’t will it someone like a bank account. Plenty of people have paid into it who never collected, and plenty collect who never paid in. The fact that the SS tax is a separate line doesn’t erase that it is still a tax, we just don’t call it that because it would upset the middle-class and wealthy voters.
So sorry, no, it is not YOUR money being “refunded” to you when you collect SS. It is the current money being collected off the current taxable workers that is being sent to you. YOUR money was sent the retirees back when you were working and paying that tax. I’m sure when it first started there were cries of “UNFAIR!” because people who had never paid in were collecting from day one. And if it ever ends (which, despite the doom-crying, I suspect it won’t) then the no, the last folks who paid in won’t get any benefit from it.
It’s a government benefit paid through taxes. It’s not a super-special secret savings account in your name. And yes, there is always a risk that it might end, you might not get any money out of it, or a reduced amount compared to what you were expecting. That’s why it’s sort of important to vote for a government that seeks to preserve this benefit rather than one seeking to eliminate, slash, or privatize it.
---
### Author:  [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2021, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/55 "2021-05-04T15:48:02Z")
Your money doesn’t exist in social security you were sold a lie. The only way social security works is if the young people are paying into the system. Sorry your money kept your parents from eating cat food. Hopefully that makes you feel good. If people today stopped paying into social security “your money” will be dried up in a year. Then you have two choices make young people pay into a system that they will never see a return from or stop paying old people with ss and give them UBI.
---
### Author:  [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2021, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/56 "2021-05-04T16:36:24Z")
Lots of pensions work exactly how you’re describing. That’s one of the reasons private companies have been moving away from them for decades. Someone works for a private company for 28 years and dies before the 30 year eligibility? Unless there’s a provision for early death in the pension agreement, their family is out of luck. Someone else dying 5 years into retirement while another person lasts 25 years? Nothing uncommon about that. The only real difference with US Social Security pensions is that the pension fund is held by the US government instead of a separate management agency, and instead of investing it in low-risk securities, the government is basing future payments on future income.
To bring the discussion back to UBI, the equivalent would be if a new employee was entitled to start receiving a pension on their first day of work, and keep receiving it if they quit the same day, and they’d be receiving the same pension as someone who worked for the company for 40 years. Don’t you think the retiree who’d been with the company for 40 years might be a bit miffed at that arrangement?
The OP has the assumption that almost all the people who would receive UBI would still want to work because they’d want a level on income higher that required to meet their basic needs. While I agree that the majority of people would, I think the number of people who would stay at home and mess about while receiving a free paycheque is higher than he thinks. UBI is never going to work if there’s a significant perception that a productive class is supporting a bunch of scroungers. Just putting Social Security recipients into the same category as the scroungers is going to create a huge amount of resentment. Telling them that all of those past payments into Social Security that they made - well that was bad timing and neo-liberalism has retconned those into a plain old tax? I think that would create resentment by the bucketload.
---
### Author:  [@epbrown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2021, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/57 "2021-05-04T17:11:05Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#):
>
> My bet is that most of those Social Security recipients would feel like they’d been royally screwed over.
To paraphrase Sheldon Cooper: They’re old - they won’t feel that way for long…
---
### Author:  [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2021, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/58 "2021-05-04T18:10:17Z")
There is a genuine phenomenon of handing out jobs to otherwise unemployed people, which are—not necessarily strictly useless, although they could be—but spending all day picking up litter on the beach is not going to support the economy or train someone in technical skills.
Resentment of “scroungers” or lack thereof depends on the spin doctors. Are your taxes supporting a class of oxygen thieves or a universal social net that benefits everyone including potentially yourself?
---
### Author:  [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2021, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/59 "2021-05-04T19:07:07Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#):
>
> The only way social security works is if the young people are paying into the system. Sorry your money kept your parents from eating cat food.
There was a quip some years ago that workers contributed cash to the SSA to support their parents and kids to support themselves.
---
### Author:  [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2021, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/60 "2021-05-04T19:56:24Z")
> [@Broomstick](#):
>
> If the new UBI exceeds their current SS allotment they may not be unhappy with that. It all depends on the UBI, doesn’t it?
I want to clarify that a lot of what people are arguing about isn’t strictly about UBI. It’s about how UBI is implemented and what it will replace.
Under Andrew Yang’s plan in 2020, UBI would have been over and above Social Security and opt-in for people on other forms of welfare. If their welfare was more than the UBI, they could keep it, but they’d have to continue qualifying for it.
For some people, it could be worth it to get the $1K/mo free and clear without any administrative hurdles.
The goal would be to reduce the benefits administration but over a period of time as more people opt-out of the system.
Inflation is affected by how the UBI would be funded, and that’s a rather long and more complex discussion.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192.md?page=2)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192.md?page=4)