# UBI, basic needs and employment
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [May 2, 2021, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192 "2021-05-02T02:00:55Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@TheGunIsMightierThanThePen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheGunIsMightierThanThePen)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2021, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/81 "2021-05-07T00:37:39Z")
That’s kind of the point of a no strings attached UBI though? If people don’t have the self-control to spend the income on necessities, instead of blowing it on big-ticket items, the onus is squarely on them.
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### Author:  [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2021, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/82 "2021-05-07T01:50:33Z")
> [@Dark\_Sponge](#):
>
> I live next to (technically on) an Indian Reservation whose tribe provides a UBI for their tribal members. The poorest parts of the reservation look like a 3rd world country.
This is how the Navajo nation is something like 30% of the homes don’t have running water. When I lived near there the first couple of weeks of every month would see a huge swell in the homeless population as they came into town to drink their checks away. Once the money ran out they would go home until the next month.
We should allow people the freedom to live how they choose even if they choose a life style we wouldn’t. We don’t need to be their parents and if anything we can put up strong anti urban camping laws once we have UBI and being homeless becomes a choice.
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2021, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/83 "2021-05-07T08:28:30Z")
> [@Dark\_Sponge](#):
>
> I live next to (technically on) an Indian Reservation whose tribe provides a UBI for their tribal members. The poorest parts of the reservation look like a 3rd world country.
I live next to Gary, Indiana. Parts of that city looked like they’ve been bombed, other parts are abandoned, other parts are burned out buildings decaying into vacant lots.
The problem isn’t that there’s an Indian Reservation, the problem is poverty and attending hopelessness, which can be found in a lot of places.
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### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2021, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/84 "2021-05-07T12:50:18Z")
If they hadn’t spent that money on a TV and phone, would that have afforded them a better place to live?
I can get a 70" TV for well under $1000, and Iphones are around $1000.
So that’s $3000 for objects that they probably get a great deal of utility out of. If they had spent that $3000 on their housing, they would have had a _slightly_ nicer trailer, but no phone or TV.
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### Author:  [@Dark\_Sponge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dark_Sponge)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2021, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/85 "2021-05-07T14:50:05Z")
Fair point. My thought was, if they’d instead spent the $3000 on maintaining their home instead of new toys each time maybe their house would have stayed inhabitable?
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### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2021, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/86 "2021-05-07T15:47:09Z")
What do you mean by each time?
In any case, as a homeowner, I know that $3000 is a drop in the bucket. I spent a number of years living below the poverty line, and letting things go to the point where if anyone had actually inspected too closely, they probably would have mandated some repairs.
Now that I’m doing better financially, it’s just a money sink. $3000 doesn’t go very far.
And you know what, I _did_ buy myself a new computer, and a new TV, spent a few grand on that, and yet, I still need to spend $7000 to fix my driveway, I need to spend a whole buncha money on my furnace which is probably on its last legs, I still have a hole in my kitchen from where I had termite damage a few years back.
There are always _better_ ways to spend money. I’m sure that if I looked at your budget, I could find things that you could have spent the money that would be smarter investments.
In any case, that’s why I personally advocate for vouchers as a large part of a UBI, rather than straight cash, but I’m in a minority on that, and I’m not tied too strongly to that position.
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### Author:  [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2021, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/87 "2021-05-07T18:14:17Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> So that’s $3000 for objects that they probably get a great deal of utility out of. If they had spent that $3000 on their housing, they would have had a _slightly_ nicer trailer, but no phone or TV.
Assuming their financial situation is relative to how it looks, it would be more reasonable for them to buy a $200 TV and $49 phones and have $2300 for food, healthcare, clothing, trailer maintenance, etc. No doubt a 70" TV is better than a 40" and iPhones are better than generic smartphones, but those are luxury versions of utility items. If someone works a crappy job and decides to spend $3000 on electronics then that’s up to them. But UBI is funded by taxpapers and they are not likely to continue supporting such a program if the recipients use the money on luxury purchases.
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### Author:  [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2021, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/88 "2021-05-07T18:27:41Z")
It would be more reasonable for _everyone_ to buy a $200 TV and a $49 phone.
Part of the point of a UBI would be that everyone is getting it, everyone would be a recipient.
Maybe I don’t have the same values that you have, and don’t care about my living situation as long as it keeps the rain off my head, but I do care about being able to enjoy my time with a couple of minor luxuries.
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### Author:  [@Dark\_Sponge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dark_Sponge)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2021, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/89 "2021-05-07T19:28:46Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#):
>
> What do you mean by each time?..
I believe the UBI for the tribe is distributed quarterly rather than monthly. The situation is also a bit different because once a tribal family owns a piece of land on the reservation they basically own it forever. I don’t believe they can lose it due to not paying taxes or fees.
People are talking about not judging the choices of others but the goal of a UBI is to improve the quality of life of the poor, right? If it doesn’t improve their quality of life, for whatever reason, I’d call it a failure.
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### Author:  [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2021, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/90 "2021-05-07T19:47:39Z")
> [@Dark\_Sponge](#):
>
> the goal of a UBI is to improve the quality of life of the poor, right?
It’s also a safety net for the middle-class when bad things happen.
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### Author:  [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)
#### Post date: [May 7, 2021, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/91 "2021-05-07T19:51:16Z")
> [@Dark\_Sponge](#):
>
> If it doesn’t improve their quality of life, for whatever reason, I’d call it a failure.
It’s only a failure if it doesn’t improve their quality of life by _their_ definition, not visibly by your or my definition. They don’t get to define your life choices, we don’t get to judge theirs. Small-minded people have been pissing and moaning about the foods in the grocery carts of folks who use food stamps for decades, hasn’t caused the feds to withdraw SNAP funding.
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### Author:  [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2021, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/92 "2021-05-08T02:28:27Z")
Exactly. The point of UBI is that it is a safety net that people can choose to fall through. We don’t get to make decisions for people or judge their decisions that’s one if the key benefits of UBI, it is very pro freedom. If someone wants to sleep in the woods and spend all of their money to stay higher than a kite - good for them.
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2021, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/93 "2021-05-08T08:58:29Z")
> [@filmore](#):
>
> Assuming their financial situation is relative to how it looks, it would be more reasonable for them to buy a $200 TV and $49 phones and have $2300 for food, healthcare, clothing, trailer maintenance, etc. No doubt a 70" TV is better than a 40" and iPhones are better than generic smartphones, but those are luxury versions of utility items.
Are you looking at the highest possible cost for those items or the lowest?
There is, in fact, a model of iPhone that you can get new for around $400 (iPhone SE according to google) and then there’s the refurbished/used second hand market which, thanks to a lot of iPhone users upgrading frequently, has quite a few phones available.
Black Friday deals can offer large screen TV’s for laughably low prices, and other deals come up from time to time. A quick look at the used market shows big screens in the named size range for under $300, which isn’t that far from your suggested $200.
Folks in the poverty range you’re describing are probably getting food stamps, free school lunches for the kids, and so on so food costs are a bit different for them than for the rest of us.
Meanwhile - $2300 is a pittance for items like healthcare (that won’t pay for even one ER visit these days) or trailer/housing maintenance. So… let’s say they forego the TV and phone entirely - they’ll still be sitting in shitty housing but now they won’t have anything to take their minds off the peeling paint on the walls, and forget even trying to get a job these days without owning a phone. Not to mention that most places to get a covid shot these days are set up with the assumption you have a smart phone of some sort which is why some senior citizens, even well-to-do ones, found it next to impossible to schedule a shot for a few months. A smart phone is quickly becoming a necessity and not a luxury.
This is once again the regular folks looking at the poor and passing judgement without knowing the full backstory. It’s like rich people donate their expensive clothes to charity then get outraged when they see poor folks wearing all that designer stuff - where on earth did they think their unwanted clothes were going?
> [@Dark\_Sponge](#):
>
> People are talking about not judging the choices of others but the goal of a UBI is to improve the quality of life of the poor, right? If it doesn’t improve their quality of life, for whatever reason, I’d call it a failure.
For people who can’t muster the money to make major home improvements - a new roof is what, $20k on most houses? - “improved quality of life” might, in fact, come down to a new (at least to them) TV or an improved quality smart phone. They still can’t afford a bigger/better house but they can afford some entertainment, or maybe some new clothes.
Now, if they drink their UBI away that’s a different problem, nor is substance abuse limited to the poor. Then again, if their life wasn’t so shitty maybe they’re be less inclined to start down the road of self-medicating.
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### Author:  [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2021, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/94 "2021-05-08T14:49:13Z")
I would say it’s more likely that that iPhone that is giving conservatives the conniptions was leased as part of some overpriced cell phone plan, and the cost is folded into their monthly phone bills. They’ll probably ultimately spend way more than $1000 for the phone, but they have to buy it in the only way they can afford.
I really doubt they walked into the Apple Store and forked over a grand for a new unlocked phone, or even spent $400 at an electronics exchange for an old one.
And that expensive TV may be part of some rent to own furniture package that they are paying for monthly, or it might have been a gift. Sometimes poor people have friends and family that aren’t poor, people replace their TV sets on a regular basis and frequently give the old ones away.
I’ve always said that whoever said necessity is the mother of invention had it exactly backwards. Things like mobile phones, computers and TV’s might have been luxuries in the past, but I think in our information driven word they have become necessities, much like electricity, refrigerators and indoor plumbing evolved from luxury product to basic necessity.
I think it’s small-minded and mean-spirited to begrudge a disadvantaged person anything that might make their live easier or more comfortable on the theory that unless they are kept on the edge in a constant state of low level anxiety they’ll refuse to work and make other bad decisions.
It’s counterproductive and I think anyone that gets mad when they see a poor person buying ice cream with “their” tax dollars is a miserable excuse for a human being…that’s as far as I take this outside of the Pit
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### Author:  [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2021, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/95 "2021-05-08T17:22:14Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#):
>
> I think anyone that gets mad when they see a poor person buying ice cream with “their” tax dollars is a miserable excuse for a human being…that’s as far as I take this outside of the Pit
I do too.
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### Author:  [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)
#### Post date: [May 8, 2021, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/96 "2021-05-08T17:46:03Z")
Where is it that people are buying lots of iPhones and TVs with their $1000/month after paying for their rent or mortgage, groceries, and utilities ? Not sure this is a huge problem. (And, were they able to afford it, it would not be a bigger problem than rampant consumerism in general. Or random bourgeois spending their extra cash on holiday travel and luxuries rather than investing every penny to make their lives increasingly efficient to be able to spend every possible minute working and being productive.)
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### Author:  [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2021, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/97 "2021-05-09T07:52:27Z")
> [@Crankyhillbilly](#):
>
> About 75% or more live off the govt, that’s between SS, social services and govt employees. The 25% that isn’t is mostly getting screwed. They don’t have the income or healthcare that the govt dependent crowd has. UBI doesn’t take anything away from those that have govt funding but makes it fairer for those that don’t.
That might be the best case to be made to Repubs & Others for why they should overcome their visceral dread of compassion and support UBI. The pitch is simple in its selfishness:
_“Look, you guys… you’re already paying Uncle Sugar to give healthcare, cash support, and other benefits to three-quarts of the country, isn’t it time for you to get in on that, too?”_
They’d love for most federal social aid to be eliminated. But, they know that will never happen so they might as well get the goodies for themselves, too.
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### Author:  [@epbrown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2021, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/98 "2021-05-09T09:55:06Z")
[quote=“I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I, post:97, topic:941192”]
That might be the best case to be made to Repubs & Others for why they should overcome their visceral dread of compassion and support UBI.[/quote]
A better pitch to conservatives might be that it’s some sort of prison system. After all, fifteen grand a year for UBI is an outrage, while $25k+ a year to keep someone in prison for smoking pot caused nary a peep.
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### Author:  [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2021, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/99 "2021-05-09T10:04:10Z")
…and in newsrooms across the world reporters are weeping that there are no pictures of ruined buildings and injured/dead people with which to sell cornflakes…
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### Author:  [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2021, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ubi-basic-needs-and-employment/941192/100 "2021-05-09T12:04:04Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#):
>
> UBI is a component of that so that people can move to low cost areas without having a job and spend money in the local economy to bring in a job after they’ve moved.
Right, I think it’s important people understand that UBI isn’t going to directly help people afford housing in expensive cities. Only indirectly if it enables people to leave and thus drops demand.
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