# UC Santa Cruz students: meet the butt-end of my M-16 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2006, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457 "2006-04-13T00:04:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/21 "2006-04-13T01:01:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That depends on the aim of the protest. If you’re trying to monkeywrench the system, making the recruiters leave is the only criterion for success. So, one’s right to “monkeywrench the system” trumps another’s right to free speech? Okay I’m gonna go kill a congreesman I disagree with. But it’s okay because what I’m doing is really “monkeywrenching” the system. And him not casting any more of his votes or making any more of his speeches is the way I measure success. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/22 "2006-04-13T01:04:15Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Hello? Is this thing on? The administration provided extra police, and there is no evidence what so ever that the recruiters or those wishing to speak to them were in any danger. The students had apparently escalated the situation to where skulls were in danger of being cracked. At that point the recruiters decided to leave instead of having a confrontation unfold. The point is that they should not HAVE TO LEAVE. They have a right to be there. The kids have a right to protest, but not to the point that violence is imminent. And if it does get to that point, the cops should arrest the students that are going too far. ---
**Author:** ![DxZero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DxZero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DxZero)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/23 "2006-04-13T01:06:09Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, one’s right to “monkeywrench the system” trumps another’s right to free speech? Okay I’m gonna go kill a congreesman I disagree with. But it’s okay because what I’m doing is really “monkeywrenching” the system. And him not casting any more of his votes or making any more of his speeches is the way I measure success. > > Gotcha. WHOA…there’s a tiny bit of difference between what you suggested doing and what the protesters were doing. For one, murder is illegal. And the protester’s actions were not. No violent acts happened. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/24 "2006-04-13T01:06:24Z")
> [@Snooooopy](#): > > Slashing the recruiters’ tires seems counterproductive – if you want them to go AWAY, why make it harder for them to do so? Nice. 😃 Now I pit you for making me laugh. That is all, back to the scumbags… ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/25 "2006-04-13T01:10:03Z")
> [@JPen](#): > > WHOA…there’s a tiny bit of difference between what you suggested doing and what the protesters were doing. > > For one, murder is illegal. And the protester’s actions were not. No violent acts happened. > > Try again. There actions were illegal. The only reason violence didn’t ensue was because the recruiters left. If you’re standing in the street holding a sign “Stop the war”? And a bunch of rednecks make it clear that if you don’t leave that violence will ensue—without overtly threatening you, you think that’s okay. I would say that if a cop was around that he would be duty bound to protect your right to legally speak your mind. Do you disagree with that? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/26 "2006-04-13T01:10:58Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The students had apparently escalated the situation to where skulls were in danger of being cracked. At that point the recruiters decided to leave instead of having a confrontation unfold. Right. And those students ought to know that by doing so, they can have the tap of federal funds shut off to their precious school. Actions have consequences, even in Santa Cruz. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/27 "2006-04-13T01:13:38Z")
They did not have the right to physically block the recruiters or interested students. The military is an honorable and productive career, and, in general, makes excellent citizens. The student protest probably should have been broken up (or at least controlled) by riot squad. The recruiters have the legal right to be on campus, regardless of protests. The assembly should have been protected. Period. ---
**Author:** ![DxZero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DxZero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DxZero)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/28 "2006-04-13T01:14:35Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > There actions were illegal. The only reason violence didn’t ensue was because the recruiters left. If you’re standing in the street holding a sign “Stop the war”? And a bunch of rednecks make it clear that if you don’t leave that violence will ensue—without overtly threatening you, you think that’s okay. I would say that if a cop was around that he would be duty bound to protect your right to legally speak your mind. Do you disagree with that? You know, you’re right. I came back here specifically to mention that the protestor’s actions were basically intimidation, which is illegal. I basically had a brain cramp on the original post. However, my point is that your analogy is still very shaky. But I understand you were being extreme to make a point. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/29 "2006-04-13T01:15:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > There are other students there who have more conservative views. One was talked about in the article. Why is it not correct the categorize the group’s self-righteous hate of the military as intolerant of the beliefs of fellow students? Too bad you can’t own a word, huh? Not suggesting anyone owns any word. You and your fellow right wing toadies are free to use whatever words you want. > [@magellan01](#): > > And as far as who can stand up to who, there was that little rendevous in a bar that I recommended. And why exactly should the students go to a military base bar where soldiers who will undoubtedly be unable to control themselves will assault them? Even you, who wasn’t even there, want to club these students with your big ol’ gun. > [@Snooooopy](#): > > Slashing the recruiters’ tires seems counterproductive – if you want them to go AWAY, why make it harder for them to do so? The tires were slashed last April, not at this protest. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/30 "2006-04-13T01:18:46Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > The tires were slashed last April, not at this protest. Then I guess they got smarter since then! ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/31 "2006-04-13T01:19:43Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Right. And those students ought to know that by doing so, they can have the tap of federal funds shut off to their precious school. Wrong. The Solomon Amendment only applies to denial of access by the schools themselves. Students protesting recruiters does not endanger federal funding. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/32 "2006-04-13T01:22:53Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The point is that they should not HAVE TO LEAVE. They have a right to be there. The kids have a right to protest, but not to the point that violence is imminent. And if it does get to that point, the cops should arrest the students that are going too far. Which completely ignores the fact, and my point, that you are misrepresenting the administration’s culpability in this case. > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Right. And those students ought to know that by doing so, they can have the tap of federal funds shut off to their precious school. > > Actions have consequences, even in Santa Cruz. Yeah, and here back in reality the 14,039 or so other students that weren’t protesting don’t face the consequences of the 100 or so students who were protesting. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/33 "2006-04-13T01:26:48Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Wrong. The Solomon Amendment only applies to denial of access by the schools themselves. Students protesting recruiters does not endanger federal funding. Betcha any reasonably competent attorney could make a very convincing case that failure to provide a safe environment for the recruiters and interested students is tantamount to not allowing them access. ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/34 "2006-04-13T01:35:12Z")
Mob rule, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/35 "2006-04-13T01:42:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Well, there was art least one, evidently. I read that article in the physical paper this morning, actually, and was surprised to see that. (Despite my listed location, I’m visiting my parents in the Bay Area at the moment.) I’m being a _little_ bit hyperbolic here, but I went to school in Santa Cruz for three years and I can promise you that “career in the military” doesn’t even register on the typical UCSC student’s radar. I remember once making an offhand comment about how guys in military uniform are hot to some housemates in Santa Cruz and was met with puzzled and/or horrified looks. The military is bad! Guns are bad! Why don’t we all have some nice stir-fried seitan and then meditate for awhile? Afterwards, we can have a drum circle on the beach! ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/36 "2006-04-13T01:44:06Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Which completely ignores the fact, and my point, that you are misrepresenting the administration’s culpability in this case. How so? If this just happened for the first time, I would agree with you. But last year 300 kids “protested”. This year they had every reason to expect that 300 or more would “protest”. Not only did they not briing in enough cops to handle the 300 kids, they didn’t bring in enough cops to hand le the 100 that actually showed up, due to the rain. That’s either willful complicity or fuck-head incompetence. I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/37 "2006-04-13T01:48:59Z")
> [@JPen](#): > > You know, you’re right. I came back here specifically to mention that the protestor’s actions were basically intimidation, which is illegal. I basically had a brain cramp on the original post. > > However, my point is that your analogy is still very shaky. But I understand you were being extreme to make a point. Yes. Thank you for being so gracious. On both counts. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/38 "2006-04-13T01:49:18Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > How so? If this just happened for the first time, I would agree with you. But last year 300 kids “protested”. This year they had every reason to expect that 300 or more would “protest”. Not only did they not briing in enough cops to handle the 300 kids, they didn’t bring in enough cops to hand le the 100 that actually showed up, due to the rain. That’s either willful complicity or fuck-head incompetence. I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. Sigh, I am going to say this again using small words. There is no evidence that there were not enough cops. The recruiters felt the situation was going to result in someone getting hurt, and decided to leave instead of that happening. No matter how many cops are there they can’t magically move the protestors. If the students were not complying with the police then the cops would have to use force to get their demands met. The recruiters did not want to see force used, so they left. Again, there is no evidence that the police presence was not adequate. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/39 "2006-04-13T01:56:15Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Sigh, I am going to say this again using small words. There is no evidence that there were not enough cops. The recruiters felt the situation was going to result in someone getting hurt, and decided to leave instead of that happening. No matter how many cops are there they can’t magically move the protestors. If the students were not complying with the police then the cops would have to use force to get their demands met. The recruiters did not want to see force used, so they left. > > Again, there is no evidence that the police presence was not adequate. Okay. I see your point. My point is that if things escalated to to the point that violence between the two groups was imminent, that either 1) there weren’t enough cops or 2) the cops didn’t do their job correctly. I admit we do not know which from the article. So in the meantime, I pit them both (just to be safe). ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/40 "2006-04-13T02:03:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Okay. I see your point. My point is that if things escalated to to the point that violence between the two groups was imminent, that either 1) there weren’t enough cops or 2) the cops didn’t do their job correctly. I admit we do not know which from the article. So in the meantime, I pit them both (just to be safe). translation: _I don’t know what happened, but military people ran away from something and people I would call “liberals” were involved, so I’m fucking pitting **someone** goddammit._ Cry me a fuckin’ river, **magellan**. Boo-hoo. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457.md?page=3)