# UC Santa Cruz students: meet the butt-end of my M-16 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2006, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457 "2006-04-13T00:04:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/81 "2006-04-13T12:52:57Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] No. If the recruiters were sitting at a table in the student union, sure, this would be acceptable. But this was a job fair, which isn’t an acceptable venue for this. [/QUOTE] Oops–missed the job fair part. Sorry, you’re right. In this case, the proper format would have been to set up their table in a public space as near as possible to the entrance of the job fair, put up a big banner inviting folks interested in the military to come talk to them, and otherwise proceed as above. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/82 "2006-04-13T12:53:21Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] So I hope this clears things up for you SnowboarderBoy. Either way, go fuck yourself with your baggy SnowboarderBoy pants that you shit and and so you can carry it around all day. And stay out of my way on the slopes. Unless, that is, you’d llike to feel the butt of that M-16 I’m so quick to use across your teeth. I’ll be the one in the camo with the rifle slung over his shoulder. Now, outya my way, boy. Go hit the bong and give yourself some more face jewelry. [/QUOTE] Any credibility you had with this rant was lost on me right here. Is this how you debate? I know it’s the pit, but I assume you aren’t 12-years-old. Lame. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/83 "2006-04-13T12:56:26Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Oops–missed the job fair part. Sorry, you’re right. In this case, the proper format would have been to set up their table in a public space as near as possible to the entrance of the job fair, put up a big banner inviting folks interested in the military to come talk to them, and otherwise proceed as above. Daniel [/QUOTE] Agree totally. I’m certainly not anti First Amendment here. However, that right must coexist with the rights of others to express themselves and go about their business. And that does include the government. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/84 "2006-04-13T12:59:04Z")
[QUOTE=Indygrrl] Any credibility you had with this rant was lost on me right here. Is this how you debate? I know it’s the pit, but I assume you aren’t 12-years-old. Lame. [/QUOTE] It is indeed how he debates, as I discovered to my dismay in Great Debates yesterday. **Mr. Moto** , it does occur to me that the students could have been clever: they could have asked for a table from which Veterans Against the Iraq War (or another anti-war group) could recruit summer interns. Once they got that, they could have sent a student to stand politely near the military recruiters table and invite visitors to that table to go visit the VAIW table before making their decision. That would almost certainly be within the rules (if not entirely within the spirit of the rules), and would have accomplished their goals through freedom of speech. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/85 "2006-04-13T13:04:47Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] That would almost certainly be within the rules (if not entirely within the spirit of the rules), and would have accomplished their goals through freedom of speech. [/QUOTE] Well, “companies” do compete with each other for new hires, don’t they? As long as they didn’t disrupt the fair or the recruiting being done, I’d have no issue there. The only real way to counter a message you don’t like is with your own message, not by shutting the other message down. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/86 "2006-04-13T13:05:59Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] The only real way to counter a message you don’t like is with your own message, not by shutting the other message down. [/QUOTE] Exactly. It’d be beautiful if UCSC (and, for that matter, Evergreen) would include a day-long symposium on the first amendment as part of Freshman Orientation. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![RTA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b4bc9f/32.png) [@RTA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTA)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/87 "2006-04-13T13:12:10Z")
Having invoked the image repeatedly here, **magellan01** has clearly meditated at length on the intense rush of adrenaline and sensation of power that bashing someone in the head and/or teeth with “the butt of his M-16” would bring him. I say the same thing to him that I’d say to anyone: if you like this war so goddamn much, why not join the military yourself? … If recruiters are having such a hard time and all, if you are so compassionate for their struggles, why not help them out and sign up? … Is it because you are a big pussy who can only be a tough guy when hunched over a keyboard? Why, I’d bet you could be bashing heads in with the butt of your M-16 by this October, if that’s what you really want to do. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/88 "2006-04-13T13:26:13Z")
[QUOTE=RTA] I say the same thing to him that I’d say to anyone: if you like this war so goddamn much, why not join the military yourself? … If recruiters are having such a hard time and all, if you are so compassionate for their struggles, why not help them out and sign up? [/QUOTE] “Every post is honorable in which a man can serve his country.” George Washington, September 14, 1775 ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/89 "2006-04-13T13:27:19Z")
Well, all I can say is that it sounds like I’d better tell my bosses at the oilfield service company I work for that attending a job fair at UC Santa Cruz would probably not be worth the effort. 😛 Otherwise, the students were out of line and unfair, IMO, but this is hardly the huge issue that the OP seems to think it is. Regardless of that issue, violence was avoided. What the fuck is wrong with that? Actually, there is one more thing I can say: that I have rarely seen a poster behaving as such a complete and utter asshole as **magellan01** has been in this thread. Sunshine, if you get so angry at a poster on an anonymous message board that you start ‘joking’ about murdering him with an automatic weapon, it’s time to put the keyboard down and walk around for a while. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/90 "2006-04-13T13:32:29Z")
Oh, sorry, on review, it turns out he was not joking about murdering him, just joking about beating him with the butt end of an automatic weapon. That’s very different. Never mind. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/91 "2006-04-13T13:37:37Z")
Yeah, while agree that what the UCSC students did was out of line and misdirected, I am highly disturbed by all the “butt of my M-16” stuff he keeps growling about. I have a feeling he has this opinion of anyone who has views to the left of him. There was a thread about the hostage release a few days ago where a poster displayed similar blood rage vitriol towards pacifists. Scary; and I don’t mean I’m scared of them, I mean that having that amount of rage surging through their thoughts is scary. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/92 "2006-04-13T13:48:04Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] “Every post is honorable in which a man can serve his country.” George Washington, September 14, 1775 [/QUOTE] Sometimes a man can serve his country best by fighting its government, and that too is honorable. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/93 "2006-04-13T15:08:57Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] “Every post is honorable in which a man can serve his country.” George Washington, September 14, 1775 [/QUOTE] I don’t think he was talking about messageboard posts. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/94 "2006-04-13T15:12:18Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Why? It’s called the biathlon. [/QUOTE] Unless the camo is to supply cover for an assault on Toon Town, [I beg to differ.](http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gameslave.co.uk/picstore/Torino2006WinterOlympics/biathalon.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.gameslave.co.uk/imageviewer.cfm%3Fimg%3D7473%26title%3DTorino%25202006%2520-%2520Winter%2520Olympics&h=768&w=1024&sz=125&tbnid=-Oj-zki7-Gu19M:&tbnh=112&tbnw=150&hl=en&ei=UGk-ROaVE6-QJK63uMYO&sig2=mTV5gexyW_mT1FDdSJ3sjw&start=15&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbiathalon%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26sa%3DN) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/95 "2006-04-13T15:24:59Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] I will also point out that, for all of the anti-military fervor you point out, two soldiers from Santa Cruz have died in Iraq. Many more, I’m sure, serve with honor. [/QUOTE] I expect that the war opponents there would point out that if they were serving in Iraq, they cannot be “serving with honor”. [QUOTE=Mr. Moto] “Every post is honorable in which a man can serve his country.” George Washington, September 14, 1775 [/QUOTE] So, say, the KGB guys who rounded up dissenters for execution or exile to the gulags were “honorable” ? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/96 "2006-04-13T15:27:35Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] What’s that got to do with it? Starving the Army of recruits – voluntary or otherwise – is a pretty good way to stop a war. [/QUOTE] You asked what the difference was? And while someone who thinks that starving the Army of recruits is a good idea is perfectly within their rights to hold that opinion and attempt to persuade others through protest, they have no right to prevent others of a different opinion from airing their case. and just because their tactics may be effective, they certainly doesn’t make them legal. As I’ve pointed out, thatey used intimidation to cause people to leave. Just think if that was done to a minority group? And in Santa Cruz, the military is a minority group. Also, they are preventing fellow students who might be of a different mind and be interested (the article pointe out one such student) who was unable to learn more about a career in the military. Beyond that, **Mr, Moto** makes good points about the $80 miilion dollar responsibility the school has to the government and sedition laws involved in interfering with recruiting during wartime. I was unaware of that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/97 "2006-04-13T15:30:15Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Worse than that, the protesters were interfering with military recruitment during wartime, which can be prosecuted under the sedition laws. [/QUOTE] Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/98 "2006-04-13T15:31:05Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] I don’t think he was talking about messageboard posts. Daniel [/QUOTE] Certainly not. I’m just sick of these chickenhawk arguments. They hold no water with me. They hold no water with Washington either, from the looks of it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/99 "2006-04-13T15:38:30Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Cite? [/QUOTE] U.S. Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 115, § 2388. Activities affecting armed forces during war (a) Whoever, when the United States is at war, willfully makes or conveys false reports or false statements with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the military or naval forces of the United States or to promote the success of its enemies; or Whoever, when the United States is at war, willfully causes or attempts to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty, in the military or naval forces of the United States, or \*\*willfully obstructs the recruiting or enlistment service of the United States, to the injury of the service or the United States, or attempts to do so— \*\* Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both. (b) If two or more persons conspire to violate subsection (a) of this section and one or more such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each of the parties to such conspiracy shall be punished as provided in said subsection (a). ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/100 "2006-04-13T15:41:58Z")
The students stepped over the line, when they became threatening, and prevented anyone from having a chance to talk with the recruiters. If they can invoke a First Amendment right to say what they want, then that same right extends to the recruiters, doesn’t it? This was just a bunch of people who went way overboard and need to be educated (it IS a school isn’t it?) about the startling concept that follows - They have a right to their opinion. Others have an equally valid right to have a different opinion. They would probably be among the first to scream about The Man telling them what to do, what to think etc. Dammit, they were doing the same thing. Stupid. Mr. Moto - I don’t know if the Solomon law would apply, even thought a court case would be interesting - it wasn’t the adminstration that kept the recruiters out or told them to leave. The recruiters decided for themselves to leave before things got out of hand (a wise decision maybe). The school administration could probably blame the students and rightly say it wan’t their (the administration) fault. Way to go, students. Fuck with recriuiters at a job fair. I guess y’all were afraid of roving press gangs of something? Moderates and Liberals try to convince “the loyal opposition” that we are logical, tolerant and willing to compromise or work to reach concensus, and you little spoiled assholes do shit like this. Y’all don’t like the military? Then just don’t sign up. When you interfere with others, and intimidate them, you cross the line. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457.md?page=6)