# UC Santa Cruz students: meet the butt-end of my M-16 **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2006, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457 "2006-04-13T00:04:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/101 "2006-04-13T15:45:35Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Unless the camo is to supply cover for an assault on Toon Town, [I beg to differ.](http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gameslave.co.uk/picstore/Torino2006WinterOlympics/biathalon.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.gameslave.co.uk/imageviewer.cfm%3Fimg%3D7473%26title%3DTorino%25202006%2520-%2520Winter%2520Olympics&h=768&w=1024&sz=125&tbnid=-Oj-zki7-Gu19M:&tbnh=112&tbnw=150&hl=en&ei=UGk-ROaVE6-QJK63uMYO&sig2=mTV5gexyW_mT1FDdSJ3sjw&start=15&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbiathalon%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26sa%3DN) Uh, you do know the biathlon grew out of a [winter exercise for Norwegian soldiers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biathlon#Concise_history), don’t you? I don’t think it is at all out of the question to associate such a sport with “camos”. And while today’s olympics uniforms are quite colorful, this was [not always the case](http://www.olimpijski.pl/i/fotogaleria/chamonix1924_szwajcaria_1i2place.jpg). Just as an item of curiosity, note that [some modern uniforms](http://www.transweb.org/webcast/winter2001/biath/op_jan19_biathlon_0768.jpg) can be quite “camo” in appearance. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/102 "2006-04-13T15:53:09Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > U.S. Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 115, § 2388. > > Activities affecting armed forces during war > > (a) Whoever, when the United States is at war . . . The terms “during war” and “at war” are left undefined. One could make a case this section does not apply absent a formal declaration of war by Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/103 "2006-04-13T15:53:48Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > U.S. Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 115, § 2388. > > Activities affecting armed forces during war > > (a) Whoever, when the United States is at war, willfully makes or conveys false reports or false statements with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the military or naval forces of the United States or to promote the success of its enemies; or > Whoever, when the United States is at war, willfully causes or attempts to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty, in the military or naval forces of the United States, or \*\*willfully obstructs the recruiting or enlistment service of the United States, to the injury of the service or the United States, or attempts to do so— \*\* > Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both. > > (b) If two or more persons conspire to violate subsection (a) of this section and one or more such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each of the parties to such conspiracy shall be punished as provided in said subsection (a). A logical defense to this is that this is a war in name only. Of course, if it looks like war it usually is, but there are all sorts of Constitutional arguments about the necessity of a declaration, the form that declaration takes, and so on, so that argument is pretty specious. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/104 "2006-04-13T16:05:56Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Certainly not. I’m just sick of these chickenhawk arguments. They hold no water with me. > > They hold no water with Washington either, from the looks of it. Fair enough–I was making a funny, that’s all. Okay, maybe that’s not all–I was also pointing out that the only sort of post **magellan** appears to be holding in defense of his country are ones on messageboards. But mostly I was just making a funny. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/105 "2006-04-13T16:10:05Z")
WTF. You guys got your president. You got your war. Now some smelly hippies in a podunkity town wedged between a mountain and an ocean where they have the political clout of a large potato sack decide they don’t like it and yell and scream a lot, and now you want to get them with charges like sedition? Do I detect some nostalgia for the good old days of protests when we had firehoses and tear gas to deal with these things? Can’t you see why, for the sake of your own side, things have changed? And what would you have done if you were in 1930s Germany and the Nazis came recruiting on your campus? Opened an anti-Nazi info booth? I’m not saying the military are Nazis, but to these protesters they are a danger to our country along that level. They are acting precisely how a rational and moral being with that belief would act. So what do you want to happen next? Threaten to pull federal funding unless a military representative can stand on campus for X amount of time without anyone yelling at him? Force UCSC to change their mascot to “the Patriots” until they can display proper support? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/106 "2006-04-13T16:10:16Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > A logical defense to this is that this is a war in name only. Of course, if it looks like war it usually is, but there are all sorts of Constitutional arguments about the necessity of a declaration, the form that declaration takes, and so on, so that argument is pretty specious. While that argument could be made, the rejoinder would be that this is covered by the part of the U.S. Code that handles the same activities under peaceful conditions: § 2387. Activities affecting armed forces generally (a) Whoever, with intent to interfere with, impair, or influence the loyalty, morale, or discipline of the military or naval forces of the United States: (1) advises, counsels, urges, or in any manner causes or attempts to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty by any member of the military or naval forces of the United States; or (2) distributes or attempts to distribute any written or printed matter which advises, counsels, or urges insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty by any member of the military or naval forces of the United States— Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/107 "2006-04-13T16:12:45Z")
> [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > You don’t even have anything in your OP-linked news story that says that the students threatened anyone with violence. Of course, I had no idea that we employed psychics in the US Army. Because of the students actions, vilolence appeared imminent.If you don’t get that from the article, I can’t help you. > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > And since you are so incensed about mobs intimidating others, I can only surmise that you are equally upset at how a mob of armed men intimidated a foreign ruler into having to give up his country… :rolleyes: Was Iraq the right thing to do? I don’t know. I looks like not, but what we don’t know is what these past 3 years what have held if we didn’t go. But Saddam’s ass-kicking was a long time over due, ideally by the U.N. The vast majority of the sentient world agree with that. But that’s not what we’re talking about here at all. A better analogy would be to compare the students to other hateful, self-righteous, closed-minded groups, like the KKK. > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > And if it isn’t okay, what are you doing to try and stop it? Nothing. Because right now it shouldn’t be stopped. Even if going over there was the dumbest thing on earth, and it may have been, we can’t just cut and run. I’d like to see us out as soon as practical. But this is fodder for another thread. > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > At least these protesters, who we have no evidence to show that they threatened anyone, were acting with the goal of putting an end to the killing which they do not like or want to continue. As is their right. And just as it would be wrong for a group to shut them up through intimidation, what they did is wrong, too. As for their threatening someone, their actions made violence imminent to the point that a group had to shut up and leave. That is intimidation. > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > All you are doing, on this anonymous internet board, is expressing your desire for others to endure pain and death, because you don’t think they agree with you, or because you think, with no evidence, that they acted in a manner you don’t approve of. No. Read the article. The evidence is that the recruiters had to leave before someone got hurt. Do you honestly think you’d have the same take on this if the intimidated group was a protected minority. These are the tactics of the KKK. And anyone who uses them is just as big an asshole. Have you ever heard of hyperbole? > [@Snowboarder Bo](#): > > Seek professional help. Maybe. Do you think the training is better with the Seals or the Rangers? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/108 "2006-04-13T16:15:56Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > While that argument could be made, the rejoinder would be that this is covered by the part of the U.S. Code that handles the same activities under peaceful conditions: > § 2387. Activities affecting armed forces generally > > (a) Whoever, with intent to interfere with, impair, or influence the loyalty, morale, or discipline of the military or naval forces of the United States: > > (1) advises, counsels, urges, or in any manner causes or attempts to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty by any member of the military or naval forces of the United States; or > > (2) distributes or attempts to distribute any written or printed matter which advises, counsels, or urges insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty by any member of the military or naval forces of the United States— > > Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction. …except that the people going to see the recruiters aren’t members of the Armed Forces yet, so none of the above qualifies. The recruiters were not affected by this either, because they left of their own volition. Man, I’m with you that the sudents were largely in the wrong here, but none of the statutes that you’re citing are really applicable in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/109 "2006-04-13T16:17:19Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > So what do you want to happen next? Threaten to pull federal funding unless a military representative can stand on campus for X amount of time without anyone yelling at him? Force UCSC to change their mascot to “the Patriots” until they can display proper support? I want those smelly hippies and the school administration to follow the law, same as I do and you do every day. If they willfully don’t do that, that’s civil disobedience, I guess, which is admirable in its own way. But part of civil disobedience is taking the consequences for your actions, which nobody here has been tested on yet. Nobody would remember Martin Luther King much today if he was given a traffic ticket and sent along his way. BTW, you have now successfully Godwinized this thread. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/110 "2006-04-13T16:20:40Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > And what would you have done if you were in 1930s Germany and the Nazis came recruiting on your campus? Opened an anti-Nazi info booth? I’m not saying the military are Nazis, but to these protesters they are a danger to our country along that level. They are acting precisely how a rational and moral being with that belief would act. I’m not sure that someone who holds that particular belief can be accurately described as “rational.” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/111 "2006-04-13T16:20:54Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Classic **magellan**. Shaky analogies,… Until you learn what a Slippery Slope arguemnt is, you are not allowed to comment on anyone else’s logic. And if you see a flaw in my logic in this thread, point it out. No doubt you will be as wrong as you were in the other thread. Slippery Slope: go do some reading. And to say that you actually did a lesson plan on it?! Some parents are due some money back. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/112 "2006-04-13T16:20:57Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > BTW, you have now successfully Godwinized this thread. Thanks. Who said _you_ get to determine when a thread has been Godwinized? What are you, some sort of Godwin Nazi? 😉🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/113 "2006-04-13T16:22:44Z")
When was the last time anyone was charged with sedition under the parts of the code **Mr. Moto** is quoting? When was the last time anyone was convicted? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/114 "2006-04-13T16:24:02Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Classic **magellan**. Shaky analogies,… > > Until you learn what a Slippery Slope arguemnt is, you are not allowed to comment on anyone else’s logic. And if you see a flaw in my logic in this thread, point it out. No doubt you will be as wrong as you were in the other thread. Slippery Slope: go do some reading. And to say that you actually did a lesson plan on it?! Some parents are due some money back. Classic magellan: 1. Backtracking on something he already admitted he’d gotten wrong; 2. Misunderstanding what I was saying in a previous thread; 3. Misunderstanding basic concepts. He’s a worthless fool–or at least, that’s his Internet persona. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/115 "2006-04-13T16:30:15Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > I’m not saying the military are Nazis, but to these protesters they are a danger to our country along that level. They are acting precisely how a rational and moral being with that belief would act. Yes, but their belief is not rational. > [@even sven](#): > > So what do you want to happen next? Threaten to pull federal funding unless a military representative can stand on campus for X amount of time without anyone yelling at him? You go to far. There is lpenty of room in which the military can communicate their message AND the protestors can communicate theirs. And it is the schools responsibility to mae sure that any student protest does not interfere with someone else who has a right to be o the campus. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/116 "2006-04-13T16:42:05Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] > [@magellan01](#): > > Classic magellan: > > 1. Backtracking on something he already admitted he’d gotten wrong; If you admitted when you were wrong, you might be a lot better off. Although, you’d be doing quite a bit of admitting. > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > 1. Misunderstanding what I was saying in a previous thread; You clarified what you thought a Slippery slope was several times. Never got it right, though. > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > 1. Misunderstanding basic concepts. Ah, the nice vague accusation. That’s you all over. Now how about sticking to this thread. If you want to continue elsewhere, just let me know. It’s a cheap tactic to attempt to poison the well with these references to other discussions, not to mention distracting to all. Go start a pit thread if you’d like. Then we can show everyone your great command of logical fallacies. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/117 "2006-04-13T16:53:37Z")
I think SteveG1 came as close to any to my opinion. I say let the military have their little booth. Given what was said about the community, it sounds as fruitful as casting your fishing line in Death Valley. There’s a whole lot of students that weren’t being out of line and the university administration had nothing to do with it. To punish all of them for one incident by a few is ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/118 "2006-04-13T16:54:32Z")
I could accept your invitation to take it somewhere else; but: 1. You’re too much of a tool ever to realize what a tool you are; and 2. It’s immediately obvious to everyone else. No reason to waste my time; there are other folks here with whom I can carry on an interesting conversation. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/119 "2006-04-13T16:58:23Z")
Is there a link to where **Left Hand of Dorkness** showed this devastating lack of knowledge about what a slippery slope argument is? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2006, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457/120 "2006-04-13T17:00:49Z")
This is entirely confusing to me. How can the protestors be supported in their actions? They stopped anyone from signing up, which in my book makes it _just as bad_ as conscription, but on the other side. Let the protestors protest, fine. Let them give a leaflet decrying the actions of the military to anyone who goes near the Army booth, fine. But once they get to the point where they’re actively stopping people from signing up, or not allowing the recruiters to do their job, then you’ve lost the moral (and possibly legal) battle, and that’s going to lose you more rational people from your camp than anything else (though of course I’m sure there are smug lefties sitting around laughing about the “evil military”, just as there’ve been smug righties sitting around laughing about “dirty hippies”). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uc-santa-cruz-students-meet-the-butt-end-of-my-m-16/352457.md?page=7)