# UFO Theory and Middle Ground. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073 "2019-01-19T21:38:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2019, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073/41 "2019-01-20T23:33:55Z")
> [@](#): > > **wolfpup** > No, it isn’t, for the reasons above. For something to be interesting, it has to have at least some theoretical plausibility. Quantum mechanics is interesting; purple unicorns are not. Yes it is interesting, I can find Quantum mechanics and your childish dismissal of my interest in UFO’s interesting at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2019, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073/42 "2019-01-20T23:41:01Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The fact that scientists reject the idea of aliens visiting our planet is not because we don’t take it seriously. It’s because we _do_. Serious consideration leads only to one place; to rejection of these ideas. It’s only frivolous consideration which can lead to accepting them. > You do know the purpose of Project Blue Book, don’t you? It wasn’t to look for evidence of aliens. It was to convince conspiracy theorists that there _were_ aliens, to distract attention away from genuine secret military projects like Project Mogul (one of whose balloons was responsible for the “Roswell Incident”). So, yes, of course Project Blue Book is going to turn up “evidence” for aliens, because that was the whole goal. No it wasn’t. > **[Project Blue Book | Project Blue Book Special Report No. 14](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Blue_Book#Project_Blue_Book_Special_Report_No._14)** > > In late December 1951, Ruppelt met with members of the Battelle Memorial Institute, a think tank based in Columbus, Ohio. Ruppelt wanted their experts to assist them in making the Air Force UFO study more scientific. It was the Battelle Institute that devised the standardized reporting form. Starting in late March 1952, the Institute started analyzing existing sighting reports and encoding about 30 report characteristics onto IBM punched cards for computer analysis. > Project Blue Book Special Rep... > [@](#): > > By the time Project Blue Book ended, it had collected 12,618 UFO reports, and concluded that most of them were misidentifications of natural phenomena (clouds, stars, etc.) or conventional aircraft. According to the National Reconnaissance Office a number of the reports could be explained by flights of the formerly secret reconnaissance planes U-2 and A-12.[2] **A small percentage of UFO reports were classified as unexplained, even after stringent analysis.** The UFO reports were archived and are available under the Freedom of Information Act, but names and other personal information of all witnesses have been redacted. ---
**Author:** ![WernhamHogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a587f6/32.png) [@WernhamHogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WernhamHogg)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2019, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073/43 "2019-01-20T23:43:58Z")
If it was a flying object and has not been positively identified, isn’t that de facto evidence that UFOs exist? ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073/44 "2019-01-21T00:30:44Z")
Given that a possible next step in our evolution is to digitize ourselves and abandon our own physical bodies would we even recognize an advanced civilization? We probably wouldn’t recognize any form too much more advanced than our own. So it’s likely anyone wed recognize is about as primitive as we are and thus subject to the same limitations. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073/45 "2019-01-21T00:49:23Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > I am probably as skeptical as anyone else on these boards I’m skeptical. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073/46 "2019-01-21T00:51:46Z")
> [@Littleman](#): > > Given that a possible next step in our evolution is to digitize ourselves and abandon our own physical bodies would we even recognize an advanced civilization? Really? Where did you get this from, and _how_ possible would you say this is? ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073/47 "2019-01-21T01:03:58Z")
> [@WernhamHogg](#): > > If it was a flying object and has not been positively identified, isn’t that de facto evidence that UFOs exist? UFOs exist, and they will always exist, because of observation errors. If and when we finally make first contact with an alien civilisation, they will also have their own stories of UFOs. These stories may be very different to ours, depending on the sensitivity and details of their sensory equipment, but (just like our stories) their sightings will be due to observation errors. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073/48 "2019-01-21T01:06:07Z")
It can lead to some unfortunate issues and fallacies, not just for this, but where ever excessive tribalism between flag waving cranks and skeptics comes into play. 1. Neither argument from authority nor the converse is true. Many authorities are unqualified or corrupt, but even perfect and correct authorities still need to provide evidence. We don’t care that they are right, we need to understand why. On the other hand, if a non authority, a crank, or a unicorn says something, that doesnt mean that it is wrong. Even at either extreme, it is unlikely to find anyone who manages to be perfectly right or wrong. 2. Real life doesn’t take sides, and isn’t all or nothing. Just because some rumor about your car model being a fire hazard turned out to be wrong, and a bunch of weirdos are still worried it’s going to blow up, doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to stop wearing seatbelts. Crazy fears are not evidence against normal precautions. 3. Tribalism is a particularly stupid and hypocritical behavior for people claiming to be rational or truth seeking. 4. Relying on a dismissive attitude is a really bad habit, regardless of your team. It is literally, prejudice. Making assumptions before or instead of actual investigating. 5. Regardless of how correct you might be, excessive immaturity clashes with whatever regard that might have otherwise afforded you. And being a dick is still being a dick, even if you have evidence then other person is a bigger dick. 6. It gives people incorrect and occasionally antithetical ideas about what science really is and is supposed to be for and about. In some cases, it perverts popular conceptions of science into a brand name or religion. 7. It helps no one to do bad things for a good cause. 8. Conceptualizing any domain as some kind of bipolar conflict harms awareness of other important issues under the same topic by focusing on the sensationalist ones ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073/49 "2019-01-21T01:11:50Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I’m reminded of an 1864 cartoon promoting General George McClellan as the “reasonable” compromise candidate for the Republican nomination. The cartoon shows two feuding child-like figures, Abraham Lincoln and the Confederacy’s Jefferson Davis, who are having a tug-of-war with the American flag and are about to tear it in two, but are prevented from doing so by McClellan, who towers over them, looking mature and regal. In reality, McClellan (in addition to being a lousy field general) was a rather slimy and calculating appeaser. [hijack] [This cartoon?](https://bostonraremaps.com/inventory/a-terrific-cartographic-cartoon-of-the-civil-war/) [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073/50 "2019-01-21T07:39:46Z")
Ancient Astronaut Theory is just [racism](https://badarchaeology.wordpress.com/2014/01/12/is-pseudoarchaeology-racist/) looking for justification for itself. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073/51 "2019-01-21T10:31:42Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I agree that the upsurge in social media and ubiquitousness of cellphones would make it impossible for interstellar visitors to remain hidden. Selfies taken with Alpha Centaurians would be commonplace online. Pretty much. The question of the existence of any given cryptid has pretty much been solved. Even in the case of the Yeti… I mean, c’mon, [this is what the top of Everest looks like](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2327185/Queue-Everest-Photographer-captures-crowds-tourists-pay-50-000-climb-worlds-tallest-peak.html). The crowd has formed a line, and you bet every last one of them is carrying some form of camera, because who climbs to the top of the world and doesn’t take a selfie? The idea that these things exist is more or less completely untenable - the evidence we’d expect to find just isn’t there. > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Alex, What are jokes that haven’t aged well? Big yikes. ---
**Author:** ![ElderSign](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eldersign/32/8263_2.png) [@ElderSign](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElderSign)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073/52 "2019-01-21T13:13:15Z")
A middle ground is that UFOs DO exist, but they are not aliens from another planet. Taking away misidentified natural phenomena, known aircrafts, illusions, hoaxes, and ignorance, we are left with cases which COULD be: 1. Secret government projects (from any country) 2. A weird natural phenomena 3. An unclassified life form 4. A unlabeled psychic projection/unknown mental power of humans 5. Signs we are living in a simulation 6. Spillover from another dimension/time period/land of fables As for the notion that with the advent of smart phones, we would have already captured one, we did- there are hundreds of “lights which move in a weird way” videos. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073/53 "2019-01-21T13:28:51Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > [hijack] [This cartoon?](https://bostonraremaps.com/inventory/a-terrific-cartographic-cartoon-of-the-civil-war/) [/hijack] Yes, that’s the one (I had remembered the protagonists as fighting over the flag instead of a map of the United States). [Relevant piece in the Skeptical Inquirer](https://www.csicop.org/si/show/ufo_identification_process) about what prompts people to report UFO sightings (articles authored/co-authored by Joe Nickell\* are almost always worth reading). \*he’s also an authority on “spontaneous human combustion”. If there’s a middle ground on that issue, perhaps it’s that people can spontaneously become mildly singed… ---
**Author:** ![yendis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ed8c4c/32.png) [@yendis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yendis)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073/54 "2019-01-21T13:33:24Z")
> [@ElderSign](#): > > A middle ground is that UFOs DO exist, but they are not aliens from another planet. > > Taking away misidentified natural phenomena, known aircrafts, illusions, hoaxes, and ignorance, we are left with cases which COULD be: > > 1. Secret government projects (from any country) > 2. A weird natural phenomena > 3. An unclassified life form > 4. A unlabeled psychic projection/unknown mental power of humans > 5. Signs we are living in a simulation > 6. Spillover from another dimension/time period/land of fables > > As for the notion that with the advent of smart phones, we would have already captured one, we did- there are hundreds of “lights which move in a weird way” videos. You missed one 1. Humans tend to misidentify and misunderstand things in a common and recurring way. ---
**Author:** ![Littleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ccd318/32.png) [@Littleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Littleman)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073/55 "2019-01-21T13:34:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Really? Where did you get this from, and _how_ possible would you say this is? Currently this is just talk from silicon valley. Elon musk talked about it in some interview about the idea that our own reality is a simulation. Along with some discussion of acheiving immortality through digitization. How possible would I say it is? Hell idk , conciousness transfer doesn’t seem impossible, given enough sophisticated equipment and assuming that our conciousness is actually the sum of our thoughts, memories and traits. Who knows, just speculating about what one possibility of an advanced civilization might be. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073/56 "2019-01-21T15:14:14Z")
> [@ElderSign](#): > > A middle ground is that UFOs DO exist, but they are not aliens from another planet. > > Taking away misidentified natural phenomena, known aircrafts, illusions, hoaxes, and ignorance, we are left with cases which COULD be: > > 1. Secret government projects (from any country) > 2. A weird natural phenomena > 3. An unclassified life form > 4. A unlabeled psychic projection/unknown mental power of humans > 5. Signs we are living in a simulation > 6. Spillover from another dimension/time period/land of fables > > As for the notion that with the advent of smart phones, we would have already captured one, we did- there are hundreds of “lights which move in a weird way” videos. Numbers 4, 6 and possibly 5 are not potential answers-they are just other questions that need their own topics. It is like saying that if you don’t think the tooth fairy is leaving money under the pillow, other possibilities are: 1. The Easter Bunny 2. Santa Claus 3. Either of those from an alternate universe edited to add: Those other possibilities are NOT “middle ground”-they are merely other wrong answers. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073/57 "2019-01-21T15:36:49Z")
> [@ElderSign](#): > > As for the notion that with the advent of smart phones, we would have already captured one, we did- there are hundreds of “lights which move in a weird way” videos. Used to be all we had was low-res fuzzy pictures of cloud-like objects from a few amateur photographers. Now, _everybody_ has a camera phone so you would expect to see a crapload of clear UFO pictures…but what we get instead of craploads of “lights that move in a weird way”(funny how those UFO pilots switched from large fuzzy objects to flirtly little lights just as our technology advanced). An aircraft at night coming your way looks like it isn’t moving at all, then it turns, reflections off a window or windshield of a passing headlight, taillight, star, moon, jogger wearing reflectors or flashing lights etc.-any of these probable answers. Why don’t you link to the very best “light that moves in a weird way” you can find(don’t need to see the hundreds of others-“quantity” and “quality” are spelled differently for a reason) and show us what you’ve got? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073/58 "2019-01-21T16:12:20Z")
I’m confused about this “middle ground” stance. Are we supposed to not require evidence for fantastical claims any more, or are we supposed to pretend that it exists then go on from there? ---
**Author:** ![Noel\_Prosequi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@Noel\_Prosequi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noel_Prosequi)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073/59 "2019-01-21T17:05:36Z")
As observed above, one of the clearest indications of bullshit phenomena (ghosts, aliens, Bigfoot, Nessie, cold fusion, insert your fave here) is the way the “evidence” in support of them only seems to exist at the extreme limits of detectability. Even when instruments improve, the evidence retreats to the margin where it always remains. An argument advanced above that while some UFO sightings have obvious explanations, there remains a small number that can’t be explained. The absence of a clear explanation is because of the poverty of the evidence in those cases - details too vague, etc. Richard Feynman made the point clearly that the “unexplained core” argument won’t fly. He rhetorically asked how many armed robberies there were in the US each year. Ten thousand? Twenty thousand? How many were solved by police? 80%? Doesn’t mean aliens did the rest. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073/60 "2019-01-21T17:17:07Z")
If scientific skeptics are to learn something from UFO conspiracy theorists, UFO conspiracy theorists need to start following the scientific method and testing the null hypothesis and not their preferred hypothesis. It is unrealistic to expect scientific skeptics to abandon the scientific method, as using the scientific method is what makes them scientists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ufo-theory-and-middle-ground/828073.md?page=4)