# Uh, Cec? A bull's wang is not a "secondary sex charateristic" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [May 4, 2006, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-cec-a-bulls-wang-is-not-a-secondary-sex-charateristic/355333 "2006-05-04T01:12:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-cec-a-bulls-wang-is-not-a-secondary-sex-charateristic/355333/1 "2006-05-04T01:12:18Z")
From this column: [Do McDonald’s Milkshakes contain seaweed?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_097b.html), in the section “The Canadians Have a Word for It”, Unca Cec writes: > [@The Perfect Master](#): > > Readers may recall our discussion last year of the plight of the bovine mammal–you know, the one that goes “moo”–for which there is no gender-neutral word. You got your cows (girl bovine mammals), you got your bulls (boy bovine mammals), you got your cattle (plural you-know-whats), but no generic singular term like “horse” or “sheep.” This puts people who are conscientious about their use of the language in the embarrassing position of having to examine the bovine mammal’s **secondary sex characteristics (admittedly pretty hard to miss)** in order to address it properly. Unca Cec, I would agree that if I’m looking at the underside of a cattle beast and see a milk-making apparatus, that would be the seconday sex characteristic of a girl bovine mammal. However, if I look and see a, well, a wang and balls, which are admittedly hard to miss, I don’t think I’m looking at a “secondary” sex characteristic. And I think Ferdinand would be upset with me if if did say, patronizingly, “Oh, yes, secondary - decidedly secondary.” ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-cec-a-bulls-wang-is-not-a-secondary-sex-charateristic/355333/2 "2006-05-04T16:48:49Z")
> [@Northern Piper](#): > > However, if I look and see a, well, a wang and balls, which are admittedly hard to miss, I don’t think I’m looking at a “secondary” sex characteristic. And I think Ferdinand would be upset with me if if did say, patronizingly, “Oh, yes, secondary - decidedly secondary.” I believe he’s referring to the horns. ---
**Author:** ![hawksgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ed655f/32.png) [@hawksgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawksgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-cec-a-bulls-wang-is-not-a-secondary-sex-charateristic/355333/3 "2006-05-04T16:57:45Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > I believe he’s referring to the horns. I don’t believe that the presence of horns determines gender. I think its a breed thing, not a sex thing. I may remember that wrong though. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-cec-a-bulls-wang-is-not-a-secondary-sex-charateristic/355333/4 "2006-05-04T16:59:38Z")
I seem to remember that the only primary sex characteristics are the testicles/ovaries, and that everything else is secondary. I’m not going to search for it at work, though, for obvious reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-cec-a-bulls-wang-is-not-a-secondary-sex-charateristic/355333/5 "2006-05-04T17:02:30Z")
> [@hawksgirl](#): > > I don’t believe that the presence of horns determines gender. I think its a breed thing, not a sex thing. I may remember that wrong though. Cows, indeed, have horns. Not a sex characteristic at all. > [@](#): > > Often people think that bulls have horns and cows do not, but both male and female cattle can have horns. Cattle deal with attackers by lowering their heads and charging, so horns can help a cow protect her calves from predators. Cows living in herds will co-operate to protect all their young. [Cite.](http://www.gan.ca/animals/cows.en.html) ---
**Author:** ![hawksgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ed655f/32.png) [@hawksgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawksgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-cec-a-bulls-wang-is-not-a-secondary-sex-charateristic/355333/6 "2006-05-04T17:16:51Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Cows, indeed, have horns. Not a sex characteristic at all. > > [Cite.](http://www.gan.ca/animals/cows.en.html) Wait, that means I actually RETAINED something that I learned in class. 😃 I’ll have to be careful and not let this go to my head. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-cec-a-bulls-wang-is-not-a-secondary-sex-charateristic/355333/7 "2006-05-04T17:25:34Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Cows, indeed, have horns. Yeah, small ones. Antlers are believed to be secondary secondary characteristics, why not horns? ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-cec-a-bulls-wang-is-not-a-secondary-sex-charateristic/355333/8 "2006-05-04T17:26:58Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Yeah, small ones. Antlers are believed to be secondary secondary characteristics, why not horns? Cause does don’t have antlers. In order for something to be a sex characteristic, it has to vary across genders. The size of a cow’s horns may be a sex characteristic, but the presence is not. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-cec-a-bulls-wang-is-not-a-secondary-sex-charateristic/355333/9 "2006-05-04T17:46:41Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Cause does don’t have antlers [That’s not entirely true](http://www.dnr.state.md.us/wildlife/antlers.asp). ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-cec-a-bulls-wang-is-not-a-secondary-sex-charateristic/355333/10 "2006-05-04T17:50:21Z")
In case it’s not obvious: I was thinking of the spikes, not full antlers. What are cow horns but large spikes? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-cec-a-bulls-wang-is-not-a-secondary-sex-charateristic/355333/11 "2006-05-04T18:02:56Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > [That’s not entirely true](http://www.dnr.state.md.us/wildlife/antlers.asp). Oh, why not just quote the important part? > [@](#): > > Antlers can also be found on female deer. Normally the doe has spikes that remain in velvet. The spiked doe remains fertile and can produce young. **This occurs in one to every 20 thousand deer.** Emphasis mine. One in twenty thousand is a statistical rate worth mentioning? > [@](#): > > In case it’s not obvious: I was thinking of the spikes, not full antlers. What are cow horns but large spikes? Also from your cite– > [@](#): > > Another misconception is that antlers are horns. Apparently spikes are not horns. [Spikes?](http://www.crafts-gifts.com/cow-skulls.shtml#cow) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-cec-a-bulls-wang-is-not-a-secondary-sex-charateristic/355333/12 "2006-05-04T18:12:18Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > One in twenty thousand is a statistical rate worth mentioning? No, which is the reson for the followup post. Please pay attention. > [@](#): > > _Also from your cite–Apparently spikes are not horns._ 'Course not–they’re related to antlers. I was just using them as an example. > [@](#): > > [Spikes?](http://www.crafts-gifts.com/cow-skulls.shtml#cow) Those images are of a Longhorn cow. Compare them to [those of the Longhorn bull](http://www.city-data.com/cpicv/vfiles7956.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-cec-a-bulls-wang-is-not-a-secondary-sex-charateristic/355333/13 "2006-05-04T18:27:36Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > No, which is the reson for the followup post. Please pay attention. Say it a little slower please. I still don’t get it. > [@](#): > > 'Course not–they’re related to antlers. I was just using them as an example. Related how? The same way skin is related to bone, perhaps. Again, significance? > [@](#): > > Antlers are outgrowths of bone that are carried by most members of the deer-family and are shed annually. According to species antlers vary extensively in size and shape. For example, those of roe deer are relatively small, straight, and slender while elk can grow shovel-like antlers capable of spanning up to 120 centimetres. As with ivory, soaking antlers in water can soften an ordinarily tough material and make carving them much easier. The toughness of antler makes it ideal for making the handles to knives and other tools. It is less frequently used than horn for decorative work. > > Cows, goats, and sheep, amongst other animals, carry horns rather than antlers. Unlike antler, horn is formed by modified skin tissue and is therefore naturally quite soft and flexible. Periodically new layers of tissue are added to the base of every horn. The material has a fibrous structure and can therefore be broken down into very thin translucent sheets. Everyday objects such as drinking mugs and vessels, flasks, spoons, bowls, and dishes are all easily made and decorated from this soft, fine material. [Link.](http://www.prm.ox.ac.uk/ivory.html) > [@](#): > > Those images are of a Longhorn cow. > > Compare them to [those of the Longhorn bull](http://www.city-data.com/cpicv/vfiles7956.jpg). Fine. Bulls have big horns. It doesn’t make a cow horn into a spike. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-cec-a-bulls-wang-is-not-a-secondary-sex-charateristic/355333/14 "2006-05-04T18:45:08Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Say it a little slower please. I still don’t get it. Does have spikes–tiny versions of antlers on bucks. Cows’ horns are much smaller versions of those on bulls of the repective breed. Clear? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-cec-a-bulls-wang-is-not-a-secondary-sex-charateristic/355333/15 "2006-05-04T19:06:24Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Does have spikes–tiny versions of antlers on bucks. Cows’ horns are much smaller versions of those on bulls of the repective breed. Clear? One in twenty thousand have spikes. This is the pertinent paragraph from your cite– > [@](#): > > Growth depends on nutrition and heredity. Antlers can also be found on female deer. Normally the doe has spikes that remain in velvet. The spiked doe remains fertile and can produce young. This occurs in one to every 20 thousand deer. In the Maryland deer kill, only two or three antlered doe are reported each year. If you are reading that as saying ‘it is normal for does to have spikes’ I suggest a closer reading is in order. Else, why would it be necessary to add that “The spiked doe remains fertile and can produce young”? Surely it goes without saying that it is a normal characteristic for the female of a species to be fertile, yes? What the author is saying is that, _of antlered does_, normally those antlers are spikes that remain in velvet. He is not referring to the general doe population; just this small subset. I suggest you should be the one to pay attention. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-cec-a-bulls-wang-is-not-a-secondary-sex-charateristic/355333/16 "2006-05-04T19:23:36Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > One in twenty thousand have spikes. No, one in twenty thousand have full antlers. Does _normally_ have spikes. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-cec-a-bulls-wang-is-not-a-secondary-sex-charateristic/355333/17 "2006-05-04T19:31:23Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > No, one in twenty thousand have full antlers. Does _normally_ have spikes. [Au contraire.](http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/volunteer/mayjun04/fndoes.html) > [@](#): > > Why do some does grow antlers? How common are they? Are they really does? These are some of the questions hunters ask as deer such as Schneider’s trophy focus attention on these unusual creatures. With the exception of caribou, females of the deer family do not normally grow antlers. **Yet reports of antlered female white-tailed, black-tailed, and mule deer go back more than a century. Most of these have velvet-covered pedicels or small spikes with some branching, and can produce fawns.** The scientific literature also contains reports of a few deer that appeared to be females except they had hard, polished antlers. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-cec-a-bulls-wang-is-not-a-secondary-sex-charateristic/355333/18 "2006-05-04T19:34:51Z")
> [@Northern Piper](#): > > From this column: [Do McDonald’s Milkshakes contain seaweed?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_097b.html), in the section “The Canadians Have a Word for It”, Unca Cec writes:Unca Cec, I would agree that if I’m looking at the underside of a cattle beast and see a milk-making apparatus, that would be the seconday sex characteristic of a girl bovine mammal. > > However, if I look and see a, well, a wang and balls, which are admittedly hard to miss, I don’t think I’m looking at a “secondary” sex characteristic. And I think Ferdinand would be upset with me if if did say, patronizingly, “Oh, yes, secondary - decidedly secondary.” Um, the article you quoted does not specify if it’s a male or female being inspected. You could just as easily read that as ‘checking to see if it has an udder or not.’ Which would meet your criteria of secondary sex characteristics. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2006, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-cec-a-bulls-wang-is-not-a-secondary-sex-charateristic/355333/19 "2006-05-04T20:09:38Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I suggest you should be the one to pay attention. You’re right; I’m trying to do better. 🙂