# Uh-oh, maybe the "outrage" will be justified this time **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 17, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872 "2006-11-17T19:43:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872/1 "2006-11-17T19:43:29Z")
[Dutch to ban wearing of Muslim burqa in public](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061117/ts_nm/dutch_burqa_ban_dc_2) > [@](#): > > The Dutch government agreed on Friday a total ban on the wearing of burqas and other Muslim face veils in public, justifying the move on security grounds. The article says this won’t affect many people, but I have a bad feeling about this. Frankly, it seems like pretty stupid legislation, especially coming form what has historically been the most tolerant country in the world. How long until we hear the word “outrage” bandied about in the press? Will it be justified this time? Thoughts? I put this in the pit since I expect it to get nasty. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872/2 "2006-11-17T19:49:30Z")
It doesn’t seem like a very good idea, but since so many other European nations have done this, there might not be so much edge to the outrage. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872/3 "2006-11-17T19:51:04Z")
How does this make things more secure? Is there a facial expression for, “I’ve got fifteen pounds of C-4 strapped to my torso,” that police are trained to look out for? Are they worried that someone’s going to try to smuggle a hand grenade into a public place by holding it in their mouth? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872/4 "2006-11-17T19:57:32Z")
[QUOTE=tdn] It doesn’t seem like a very good idea, but since so many other European nations have done this, there might not be so much edge to the outrage. [/QUOTE] Which ones have done this? Not trying to be snarky or anything-- I just wasn’t aware that it was policy anywhere (except, oddly enough, in Turkey). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872/5 "2006-11-17T20:02:23Z")
Now see, this just makes me want to wear a burqa in protest. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872/6 "2006-11-17T20:12:55Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Now see, this just makes me want to wear a burqa in protest. [/QUOTE] I’m sure everyone who lives in your neighborhood would support this action. :d&r: Disclaimer: I am sure you’re actually gorgeous - it was just a line I couldn’t resist. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872/7 "2006-11-17T20:13:52Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Is there a facial expression for, “I’ve got fifteen pounds of C-4 strapped to my torso,” that police are trained to look out for? [/quote] Yeah. Relax your jowls. . .now curl the left side of your upper lip back to expose your incisor. Then, when you’ve managed that, raise your right eyebrow 1/4 of an inch, flare your nostrils and close your eyes halfway. Voila! Now, the 1/4 of an inch is of vital importance. An eighth more and you’re saying, “I would like an extra side of rice with my kung pao shrimp.” An eighth less and you’re saying, “Rip this burqa from me and make hot jungle monkey love to me for as long as it might take.” ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872/8 "2006-11-17T20:16:19Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Which ones have done this? Not trying to be snarky or anything-- I just wasn’t aware that it was policy anywhere (except, oddly enough, in Turkey). [/QUOTE] According to your link, France and Italy have. Though upon re-reading, they’ve only banned them in specific locations. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872/9 "2006-11-17T20:22:30Z")
Maybe it’s a security camera type thing. Are women in burkas knocking over 7/11’s and banks over there? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872/10 "2006-11-17T20:27:26Z")
This kind of thing just makes me crazy…I don’t even know what to say. So much for being “enlightened.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872/11 "2006-11-17T20:28:38Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Now see, this just makes me want to wear a burqa in protest. [/QUOTE] That presents an interesting delima. I see where you’re getting at, but do you don a symbol of female oppression in order to protest an iffy law? I personally don’t believe that any woman\* wears a burqa by choice and you probably agree. Basically you’d be saying that you support the right of women to be oppressed by men. Kinda weird, no? There was a case somewhat similar to this in my area. An Afgahn-American woman (mother of 6) was slain in broad daylight for no apparent reason. Many people are assuming it was a hate crime, since she wore a hijab. So, women in that town got together and held a “wear hijab for a day” protest. There was a certain amount of unease about this, though, because many people saw it as giving approval to an idea which, at its root, is anti-female. (Hijab is just the head scarf, not the total body covering like a burqa, just to be clear.) \*Yeah, there’s probably a handful that do, but you know what I mean! ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872/12 "2006-11-17T20:57:26Z")
I don’t know that this is all that outrageous. There are some US states that have anti-masking laws on the books–tailored more narrowly than this measure, but they exist. How seriously do the Muslims take this stuff? Do they believe they’ll go to hell for being seen unmasked, or is it something less serious? ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872/13 "2006-11-17T21:14:22Z")
Please cite a US state that has a law that bans wearing a burqa. After you look for it and do not find it take a look at the Bill of Rights. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872/14 "2006-11-17T21:19:52Z")
[QUOTE=Oakminster] I don’t know that this is all that outrageous. There are some US states that have anti-masking laws on the books–tailored more narrowly than this measure, but they exist. How seriously do the Muslims take this stuff? Do they believe they’ll go to hell for being seen unmasked, or is it something less serious? [/QUOTE] But do they affect women who want to cover their faces for religious purposes? Has a woman ever been arrested for wearing _niqab_? ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872/15 "2006-11-17T21:30:21Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] Please cite a US state that has a law that bans wearing a burqa. After you look for it and do not find it take a look at the Bill of Rights. [/QUOTE] I know this is really a stretch, but I’m pretty sure Oklahoma has or had a law on the books outlawing masked organizations. From what I heard, it was specifically aimed at the Ku Klux Klan. One of the University of Oklahoma’s student clubs (the Knights of Old Trusty) had an exemption. So, Islamic women = masked organization? ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872/16 "2006-11-17T21:31:55Z")
This is silly. Burqas don’t kill people, people kill people. You’ll ban my burqa when you pry it from cold, dead, umm, head. When burqas are outlawed only outlaws will have burqas. And so forth and so on. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872/17 "2006-11-17T21:48:24Z")
[QUOTE=tdn] According to your link, France and Italy have. Though upon re-reading, **they’ve only banned them in specific locations**. [/QUOTE] The face? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872/18 "2006-11-17T21:57:54Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I personally don’t believe that any woman\* wears a burqa by choice and you probably agree. Basically you’d be saying that you support the right of women to be oppressed by men. Kinda weird, no? [/QUOTE] Well, no; precisely because of those few that do. For that matter, there are apparently mere dozens of women in the Netherlands that wear the burqa at all; hardly enough to warrant such paroxysms of populist handwringing (and what are the odds they were consulted on this legislation?). No matter what you think about people’s choices and their motives, it seems completely incongruous to fight coercion with coercion, simply supplanting the “wrong” choice with the “enlightened” one. Wearing a burqa in protest would only be supporting female oppression if you’re utterly confident that every sane person would agree with you; the very assumption against which you’d be protesting. I don’t know anyone who wears a burqa to ask, but I certainly know several people who wear varying degrees of veil and scarf with no apparent coercion or ill feeling, and I would have absolutely no compunction about donning one in protest were my government to propose any legislation so ill-considered as this. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872/19 "2006-11-17T21:59:20Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] Please cite a US state that has a law that bans wearing a burqa. After you look for it and do not find it take a look at the Bill of Rights. [/QUOTE] No, you cite to me where I said there was such a state, and stuff that snark right up your ass while you’re at it. What I said was that there are states with anti-masking laws on the books, and that those laws are tailored more narrowly than the measure under discussion here. Apparrently, New York is, or was as recently as 1999, one of them: [http://www.cnn.com/US/9910/23/klan.03/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/US/9910/23/klan.03/index.html) I have not commented on whether such laws would apply to muslim women, or even whether they should. I did say that the measure under discussion here may not be all that outrageous. If you want to flame me, please bother to flame me for something I actually said. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2006, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872/20 "2006-11-17T22:27:22Z")
[QUOTE=Dead Badger] Well, no; precisely because of those few that do. For that matter, there are apparently mere dozens of women in the Netherlands that wear the burqa at all; hardly enough to warrant such paroxysms of populist handwringing (and what are the odds they were consulted on this legislation?). No matter what you think about people’s choices and their motives, it seems completely incongruous to fight coercion with coercion, simply supplanting the “wrong” choice with the “enlightened” one. Wearing a burqa in protest would only be supporting female oppression if you’re utterly confident that every sane person would agree with you; the very assumption against which you’d be protesting. I don’t know anyone who wears a burqa to ask, but I certainly know several people who wear varying degrees of veil and scarf with no apparent coercion or ill feeling, and I would have absolutely no compunction about donning one in protest were my government to propose any legislation so ill-considered as this. [/QUOTE] Why must it be unanimous? As long as some women are oppressed through compulsory burqa wearing, that’s enough for me. And I’m confident enough from my reading that most women would gladly throw off their burqas if they could. Not only does it dehmanize the women, but it is **fucking dangerous** to make people walk around with limited visibility. Your cultural relativism here is waaaay off the mark. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-maybe-the-outrage-will-be-justified-this-time/380872.md?page=2)