# Uh Oh! Still no WMD **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 6, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160 "2003-06-06T19:46:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Hank\_Fescue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/49beb7/32.png) [@Hank\_Fescue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Fescue)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160/61 "2003-06-08T06:12:05Z")
I read alot of the discussion here about Iraq and the thing that never seems to get much consideration is this: WE HAVE BEEN BOMBING THE BLOODY HELL OUT OF IRAQ FOR OVER TEN YEARS. We have bombed Iraq on a weekly basis since 1991. Almost every other day. Do any of you truely believe that you can bomb a country for ten years without them using any and all weapons available to stop you? An imminent threat to us? Are you shitting me? It is beyond me sometimes that people here are so dumb. Maybe not dumb, just ignorant of facts. Before you decide what threat Sadam was to us please consider, one more time, WE HAVE BEEN BOMBING THE BLOODY HELL OUT OF IRAQ FOR OVER TEN YEARS. Think about that for a moment. What has been the reaction of Saddam? Granted he was an asshole of historic porportion and considering this, why didn’t he strike back at us? Because he couldn’t. He had no capability. If he had a small fraction of the capability we claimed him to have it would have been used a long time ago. And as this may relate to 9/11, remember, if you go around bombing people incestantly, sooner or later they will find a way to strike back. The repercussions of this war have not yet even been fully considered by either side but rest assured our country will pay the price for its deeds someday. May God have mercy on us. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160/62 "2003-06-08T06:28:20Z")
**Ogre** Odd as it may seem, I really and genuinely hope that evidence of WMD, all tooled up and ready to go, is found. I really hope that the foundation reason for this war is solid, that we , the UK, and the US can be seen to have been protecting the interests of the whole world, that the French, Russians, Germans and all those who were sceptical in the UN are proven to be naive, laissez-faire nations that are lacking in true leadership. Sadly I think that after months of searching it seriously looks like we the electorate were grossly misled, that our nations sanctioned a war against the wishes of the majority of the world, that we were too gung-ho to actually wait for inspections to do the task set out. In any event, it now seems very clear that the self-defense aspect, that Iraq was an imminent danger to the West, (and really the only possible justification for an agressive act upon a sovereign state under current UN charter rules), that threat was and always was a complete figment of the imagination. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160/63 "2003-06-08T06:49:40Z")
> [@](#): > > … if you go around bombing people incestantly … Thanks for _that_ mental image, **Hank**. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160/64 "2003-06-08T07:03:55Z")
After all, we are all brothers and sisters… ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160/65 "2003-06-08T13:46:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*Point for newcomers. > > **Ogre’s** argument is and always has been: Go and take the oil, and if people get killed, so what? \*\* Newcomers can probably form their own opinions on that, don’t you think? Yours seems to be…lacking. Everyone here seems to be well entrenched in their positions. My position is that Powell’s case to the UN is available on the web for all the public to read. It is pages long and contains no “one” justification or legal reason. It’s a whole case for regime change. Some accepted it as a good case, some outright reject it, but there is really _no_ sense in insisting that half of it is meaningless and only the WMD issues matter. What’s up with that. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160/66 "2003-06-08T13:56:37Z")
Keep spinning. A great majority of “pro-war” people were absolutely apoplectic about WMDs as a reason to bomb Baghdad. In fact the war wasn’t hardly a day old when someone started a thread along the lines of … “They’re firing WMD’s at us, don’t you pussy Liberals feel stupid now!?” And now that WMD’s aren’t the issue (because nobody can find any, and the “evidence” of them seem to have been exaggerated at best), “Regime Change” is the battle cry. Either that or fucking museum looting is propped up as a bone of contention. Museum looting – like that’s the humanitarian issue that everyone is most concerned about. It’s transparent. Hell, I’d have more respect for “war-mongers” if they just screamed bloodlust. At least that would be honest. “Liberating the Iraqi people” is the biggest load of bullshit to come from this. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160/67 "2003-06-08T14:19:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tee \* > \*\*Newcomers can probably form their own opinions on that, don’t you think? Yours seems to be…lacking. > \*\* If **Ogre** wishes to state his position differently, that’s up to him, sport, not you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160/68 "2003-06-08T14:24:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by casdave \* > Odd as it may seem, I really and genuinely hope that evidence of WMD, all tooled up and ready to go, is found. > \*\* I would normally estew posting just to say, “me too”, but abso-fucking-lutely, this is what I hope for, unambiguous, in-your-face proof that Iraq was tooled-up. But I don’t think it’s going to happen – it would already have happened, you might be able to hide weapons in bunkers in the desert, but what of the people who know of their location, are they hidden also? Do they maintain some sick loyalty to Saddam? All of them? I don’t fucking think so. And it scares me shitless. **Tee** , read the fucking title of the fucking thread. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160/69 "2003-06-08T14:24:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tee \* > \*\*Newcomers can probably form their own opinions on that, don’t you think? Yours seems to be…lacking. > \*\* If **Ogre** wishes to state his position differently, that’s up to him, sport, not you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160/70 "2003-06-08T16:06:52Z")
Actually, I would normally _eschew_ such a thing, but fuck it, it’s Sunday, let’s push the boat out. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160/71 "2003-06-08T16:16:33Z")
_estew, Brute?_ 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160/72 "2003-06-08T19:10:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Odd as it may seem, I really and genuinely hope that evidence of WMD, all tooled up and ready to go, is found. > I really hope that the foundation reason for this war is solid, that we , the UK, and the US can be seen to have been protecting the interests of the whole world, that the French, Russians, Germans and all those who were sceptical in the UN are proven to be naive, laissez-faire nations that are lacking in true leadership. > > Sadly I think that after months of searching it seriously looks like we the electorate were grossly misled, that our nations sanctioned a war against the wishes of the majority of the world, that we were too gung-ho to actually wait for inspections to do the task set out. This may actually be the foundation of our disagreement. I don’t think enough time has passed yet, nor is there enough clear information, to make that determination. Notice how I’m specifically NOT bringing up those “mobile bioweapons labs.” I’ve become a mite jaded as well. > [@](#): > > …that threat was and always was a complete figment of the imagination. I’m not ready to cede that point yet. Plus, it may very well be that an economic threat is every bit as potentially lethal as a warehouse full of VX. This is a subtle, dangerous point, but given that people die without petroleum, it may be vaild. > [@](#): > > Point for newcomers. > > Ogre’s argument is and always has been: Go and take the oil, and if people get killed, so what? Actually, my point is quite a bit more subtle than that, and I’ll thank you not to misrepresent me so irresponsibly. There is a vast world of difference between “go and take the oil,” and “the supply of oil must be stable.” > [@](#): > > If Ogre wishes to state his position differently, that’s up to him, sport, not you. People always tell me I talk too much. **Tee** did an admirable job of summing up my point, without all my characteristic hard-eyed bluster. Thanks. > [@](#): > > estew, Brute? Hey, **Brutus** hasn’t found this thread yet. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160/73 "2003-06-08T20:42:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by casdave \* > Odd as it may seem, I really and genuinely hope that evidence of WMD, all tooled up and ready to go, is found. I don’t. Remember all those prospective WMD sites the US didn’t even bother to try to secure on the way in? The ones that were looted to the ground before we could ascertain what was or wasn’t there? If there were WMDs in Iraq, they could be _anywhere_ now. Let us hope to high heaven that Bush was merely lying through his teeth about the WMDs, and that the US plan of war didn’t involve securing WMD sites because Bush, Rumsfeld & Co. knew the whole time they didn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160/74 "2003-06-08T21:15:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*I don’t. > > Remember all those prospective WMD sites the US didn’t even bother to try to secure on the way in? The ones that were looted to the ground before we could ascertain what was or wasn’t there? > > If there were WMDs in Iraq, they could be _anywhere_ now. Let us hope to high heaven that Bush was merely lying through his teeth about the WMDs, and that the US plan of war didn’t involve securing WMD sites because Bush, Rumsfeld & Co. knew the whole time they didn’t exist. \*\* I misread your post the first time, and very nearly flamed you unjustifiably. You are right, it seems the best we could credit Bush with is incompetence – if the forces have not secured the alleged WMDs you can bet that the people who have are no more trustworthy than Saddam. Richard Dawkins made this same point in a [letter to The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,3604,962631,00.html) two weeks ago. > [@](#): > > \*\*· Either there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq or there were not. > > If there were not, we have been led into an unprovoked war (with consequences now beginning to unfold) on the basis of incompetent intelligence if not deliberate lies. If there were, they have gone mysteriously missing and have presumably fallen into dangerous hands - exactly the circumstance the war was supposed to forestall. > > In this case the so-called “coalition” is guilty of dangerous incompetence. In more honourable times either incompetence or mendacity, let alone both, were considered grounds for resignation. The plea that it takes time to find weapons will not wash. Sauce for Hans Blix’s goose is sauce for our strutting, preening ganders. > Richard Dawkins > New College, > Oxford \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160/75 "2003-06-08T21:49:36Z")
And I once heard of a Professor Emeritus of Political Science who opined that evolution was poppycock. ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160/76 "2003-06-08T21:50:38Z")
RaoulD I think I’d be able to take your post a bit more seriously if you didn’t work of DINFOS. ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160/77 "2003-06-08T21:52:46Z")
Work _for_ dammit. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160/78 "2003-06-08T22:09:18Z")
From the letter to the _Guardian_. > [@](#): > > In this case the so-called “coalition” is guilty of dangerous incompetence. In more honourable times either incompetence or mendacity, let alone both, were considered grounds for resignation. Hey, Dick Dawkins. You write a great letter. Unfortunately for the US, we don’t have your governmental system. These sumbitches we elect here don’t **resign**. They just change their story on what went wrong. Or what their _true_ objective was. Or what…ever. [sub]Although, Blair is doing a pretty good imitation of a US politician. He’s toast! IMHO. [/sub] ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160/79 "2003-06-08T22:22:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Great Unwashed \* > Richard Dawkins made this same point in a [letter to The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,3604,962631,00.html) two weeks ago. > > > [@](#): > > > > Either there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq or there were not. … > > > > If there were, they have gone mysteriously missing and have presumably fallen into dangerous hands - exactly the circumstance the war was supposed to forestall. > > > > In this case the so-called “coalition” is guilty of dangerous incompetence. In more honourable times either incompetence or mendacity, let alone both, were considered grounds for resignation. The plea that it takes time to find weapons will not wash. Sauce for Hans Blix’s goose is sauce for our strutting, preening ganders. Richard Dawkins This is well-written, but fallacious. The possibility that a certain amont of chemical and biological weapons falling into the hands of terrorists is not “_exactly_ the circumstance the war was supposed to forestall.” The war was supposed to forestall the possibility of Iraq making major, continuing use of its WMDs. E.g., to threaten the west while re-invading Kuwait. Or, to use against Iran in another war against them. It was supposed to forestall Iraq developing nuclear weapons and using them or providing them to terrorists. In fact, the war _did_ succeed in ending the possibility that any of these things might occur. Let’s take another look at Dawkins’s above hypothsis. _If there were WMDs_ then Iraq was willfully not complying with UN resolutions and, more importantly, _Iraq was becoming more and more dangerous, as their stocks of WMDs increased_. Under those circumstances, any reasonable action to stop them was better than not stopping them. That’s the gist of the title quote from famous business professor, Peter Drucker. Bush’s possibly flawed action against Saddam was the right thing. It was superior to the wrong thing – inaction. That’s what the world got from the UN and other leaders. Furthermore, to say that the war didn’t meet Dawkins’s utopian ideal of perfection isn’t to say that it didn’t go very well indeed. Look at the predictions of anti-war folks before the war actually began. They forcast all kinds of disasters, which didn’t occur. Or, look at the disasters that actually took place in other successful wars. By most reasonable standards, the war in Iraq went very well indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2003, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160/80 "2003-06-08T23:20:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RaoulD \* > \*\*Give this country five years though and it will be the jewel of the Middle East. \*\* As opposed to Afghanistan, the enthusiasm for the rebuilding of which seems to have trickled away in the light of other events. But hey, Afghanistan is just so…_last year_. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uh-oh-still-no-wmd/180160.md?page=5)