I glazed over this silliness half way through, but I just want to mention that this topic was beaten into the ground in the past IIRC maybe early last fall. While I see that new posters should be made aware of this, and I believe that most who know enough of how to do it, know the right way to do it. The right way being to d/l it to your site or one of the generous posters around here’s site, and link to that. I think most are smart enough to do that.
Look at the number of new users since last fall - how are they supposed to know this? I didn’t, this is the kind of thing that belongs in FAQ, isn’t it?
Are you driving with your eyes open or are you using the force? - A. Foley
opus: You’re wrong and I’ll tell you exactly how I know:
WHen I made the “having sex” smiley graphic, I put it on my server and then posted it in several messages. I then decided that it wasn’t quite right, went back, made changes to the graphic, and uploaded it again to my server. AND THE NEW VERSION SHOWED IN THE OLD THREADS.
–
“it’s all real”
“I KNEW IT!!!”
O p a l C a t
www.opalcat.com
Okay, I’m fully convinced that it is wrong. But I have no clue what it is that is wrong, and what is right.
Maybe it’s because I’ve not tried linking any graphics, and the only smiley’s I’ve used are the standard smiley, wink smiley, and cheesy grin smiley.
So what exactly is the right way? Can you spell it out (in a FAQ maybe) on the proper way to download and post images instead of “stealing bandwidth”.
I’m not a moron, but I only pick up a little at a time as I use it, and so far have not had any real need to hunt and repost images.
Also, I might have somewhere else to pass on the info.
Thanks for any clarification.
Irishman - lost as usual (but happy the board is back)
See if this doesn’t help you see it straight:
Consider everything that you see on any webpage that you didn’t personally create from stuff out of your own head, graphics or text or whatever, as the exclusive property of someone else.
And unless they have specifically given permission to you personally or to everybody in toto to copy or borrow or reproduce it, respect their right to hold copyright, their right to own their own stuff and don’t use it.
You may LINK to the object in question, hyperlinks are fine, but you cannot reproduce something in total without consent of the copyright holder.
You are allowed to BRIEFLY cite quotes from a site to back up a point or illustrate your argument.
And, oh, while we’re on the subject, we don’t allow commercial solicitation, so no hyperlinks to “click on this to have money and sex,” either.
Does this clear up the situation?
your humble TubaDiva
Administrator
The Straight Dope
No. I fully agree that if you want someone to see something at a site, you should post a link to the site. Understand all about brief cites for the sake of commentary, giving someone a clue as to what to expect, etc.
My question is about the graphics stuff. This thread is talking about stealing “bandwidth” - I’m not sure what that is or how it’s being stolen.
If copyright issues are the question, then as I see it you don’t copy the image file, download it to your own site, and use it for your own purposes. But that’s not the complaint above. The OP is about linking to the image stored on someone elses site, without linking to the page itself, so the image shows up on whatever page you want but is stored on their server, not your own.
I guess it has something to do with the way graphics and other web page bits are stored. You have space on a server to save the files. Then in the coding for the web page you reference the file you have in a separate location (directory, corner of the server). So the complaint is that they don’t want you to link to a file at someone else’s site and put it in your documents.
Am I close?
Basically I see 2 things.
As far as bandwidth, don’t link to the file at someone else’s site. It’s okay to have a hyperlink to their webpage so you direct any traffic to actually increase the hits on their site, but don’t just reference their file in your web page coding and leave the image/graphic stored on their server. That is stealing bandwidth.
If you would like to use a graphic, make sure it is okay for you to use by checking copyright issues. Is there a standard statement about content? Is it free domain? Is it posted to a board for the explicit purpose of being available for everyone to copy and use themselves? If it is okay, then copy it to your own server space. Then you can reference it in any web pages, bb posts, etc, you want, without stealing bandwidth from anyone else.
That’s the type of explanation I think most of us want - a clear, concise statement of what to do and how. And then the moderators doing what they can to encourage the proper behavior.
Irishman, you definately have the problem figured out. Copyright infringement and bandwidth theft can get intertwined, but they are seperate issues. Copyright has to do with what or whose it is, bandwidth has to do with where it is. They both have to do with permission to use. But when a graphics site says that images are free to use, they don’t normally mean that you can feely hotlink the image from their site. They mean download it to your site and use it from your own space.
Here are a few links to visit for other’s take on it if anyone is interested.
A basic description of bandwidth theft
A what it is and what to do about it site
A developer’s article on ZDNet about “direct linking”
A basic description of bandwidth
From the image providers point of view
The basic idea is that the source of an image should be either this message board, your own web space, or a site that specifically gives you permission to reference images on their site (not permission to use).
And one last thing, Opus, the images are never loaded on the SDMB server. The image tag tells your browser where to look for the image, it doesn’t tell the SDMB server where to look. Your browser request the file from the site specified in the image tag. Therefore, if a thousand members open the thread with the image in it, there are a thousand calls to the server that the image is located on.
I just hope that people respect others property, effort, server space, and bandwidth. This is pretty much an honor system.
Well said, and thank you very very much.
At root, it’s all about being a good Netizen and a moral person. That might sound trite and even foolish to some of you, but too bad.
your humble TubaDiva
You never go wrong doing the right thing.
Oh, wow. This is all my fault 
Yes, I was the one who posted smileshot2.gif the first time on this bulletin board. I am a regular reader of ArsTechnica and a semi-regular reader here.
A bit of smileyshot history: ArsTechnica is a computer news website and UBB forum dedicated to computer hardware. This is where people congrigate to discuss what the best CD Writer is, and how to put together an overclocked dual celeron processor machine. They had their UBB forum upgrade, with its introduction of the new and controversial green smiley, about a week or two before this site did. One of the regular readers created smileyshot2.gif to express his innermost feelings about it. The owner of the board liked it so much that he added it to the server so that the user’s bandwidth wouldn’t be consumed when the smiley was posted. (That is to say, as long as any new links to the image were linked to the the copy on the server rather than the copy in the user’s personal web site)
When this site had their upgrade, and the smiley revolution had begun, I felt that this site needed smileyshot2.gif, and knowing that ArsTechnica was a fully capable server with plenty of bandwidth and that linking over one little smiley would be a drop in the bucket, I guiltlessly linked it to here. And a good time was had by all.
To those of you feeling guilty over having used smileyshot2.gif, don’t lose any sleep. No harm was done. We readers of ArsTechnica did not notice any unusual slowing because of it.
On the other hand, my expectation was that the link would appear in my post, and a few people would follow suit, and in a few weeks it would hardly ever be seen again. If, however, people start using smileyshot2.gif in their signature, or find themselves inserting it in every other post, then I have made myself a bandwidth bandit (Though it’s probably still petty theft)! Also, I didn’t ask anyone’s permission, though I am quite sure that no one involved is bent on preserving the integrity of their intellectual property rights. (As I said ArsTechnica is not the creator of the graphic)
Linking big pictures is generally a big no-no. I don’t really want to trivialize bandwidth stealing with this post. I just want to say that smileyshot2.gif is a more trivial example of the “crime”.
ArsTechnica is rather guilty of bandwidth theft themselves. In fact, the smileysex gif has made it’s way around to there just this week, though linked off a third UBB site (about the game Quake, I think) Maybe that’s why I didn’t think twice. I was just raised on the wrong side of the backbone.
And just to provide some sort of penance for my sin, let me cordially invite any of you who are computer tweekers, early adopters, technology enthusiasts, or those who just like to chat with geeks to the news and forums at [ULR]www.arstechnica.com and forum.arstechnica.com .
Most of the forums are self explanatory. “The Lounge” is Ars’ MPSIMS, “The Soapbox” is Great Debates and The BBQ Pit rolled up in one, and “The Battlefront” is Great Debates and the BBQ Pit for technology topics only (Mostly PC vs. Mac, and Windows vs. Linux). We even have “The Agora” for selling and trading computer parts. You can look for me as Jebediah on that board as well. Manhattan, I hope to see you there!
Oh, and if you screw up a UBB tag on the Ars forum, you can go back and edit it!
Ooo, too late at night to edit. My apologies for my spelling, bad grammar, and rambling.
Jebediah, I used the smileshot2.gif as an example. Whether it was a perfect example doesn’t mean much. It had certain elements to it that made a good example. It obviously wasn’t an image on this board. It wasn’t on a user’s site. More than one person was using it, which meant it was doubtful that they all had permission. A moderator used it.
I know that in the grand scheme of things, that one smiley isn’t a big deal. But, when someone wants to get an even cuter smiley, where does it come from, who is it being stolen from, do they mind? It seemed to be something that could get out of hand and be abused and I thought that the board and the moderators should be made aware of the potential problem. But mostly, that the people here realized that it wasn’t the right way to display images.
It wasn’t that smiley itself that I was talking about but the principle.
Hopefully, it raised the awareness of better ways of doing things.
Jim
Thanks Jim B, exactly the information I needed.
Isn’t that the problem, with bandwidth stealing? Linking to someone else’s graphic can overload their server, while yours avoids that problem?
Many times I’ve been asked by someone if they could link to my pages, and my reaction used to be, well of course. That was before the issue of bandwidth stealing came up. Eventually, I can see where a permission to even link to a page might be required. Some webpages have characteristics similar (in this context) to graphics files.
rocks
This got me thinking, and at the risk of thread hijacking, I’d like to run it by you.
Suppose I create the Felching Smileys™, and encourage everybody to link to my page to use it. It becomes wildly popular, the most ubiquitous net image since the Dancing Hamsters, and all referencing my files on my server space. Sensing a profit opportunity, I sell advertising space based on the prodigious number of downloads of the Felching Smileys™, then create a banner ad with the same name, replacing the original Felching Smileys™ file on my server space. Now this banner is broadcast throughout the world, appearing on homepages and message boards for free, courtesy of these netizen’s compulsive desire to use my bandwidth.
Does this make me a bad person? Should I not do this?
TT
“It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers.”
–James Thurber
[quote]
the images are never loaded on the SDMB server
[quote]
This is not an acceptable answer because it only begs the question: why aren’t they? Web servers that I have built receive strict instructions to keep a copy of large files that are referenced from locations outside of the local network (usually a CWW). The specifics are based on the file type & parameters are easily tailored to specific server needs & BW limitations. If TSDMB administrators are really concerned about BW issues of foreign hosts, they could make the necessary adjustments and have their servers keep copies of large files. This would truly be a adopting a be kind to foreign servers stance. I can’t think of a reason why a server wouldn’t be built without any kind of bandwidth policing.
By disallowing the server to make jpeg & gif copies you force it to do that much more work by having to go out and get a whole new image each time somebody here wants to see it. That makes the implicit statement that the server is managed without regard to BW limitations of foreign hosts. I’d think a client would be royally pissed if I put her server together to work that way.
If and when it ever becomes an issue, it can only be dealt with at the network level because one person is never going to believe that his little 10kb jpeg could generate that much traffic. Even if all 25 of us here in this discussion have learned a lesson, there is still 4800 other registered dopers out there who may never have a clue (or need/want one).
Given sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.
ThufferinThuccotash! You made superscripts! How? Tell me and my science guys in GQ and you will be a God there!
Opus, your proposal won’t/can’t work for the following reason. The UBB software (and no other message board software that I’m aware of) works that way. When a person enters into his/her message a reference to the other site, it acts as an instruction for the viewer’s browser to go look up the image and report it at the appropriate spot on the screen. We wouldn’t even have the first idea how to make the software look up the referenced site, pull the image, store it on the SD server and rewrite the post to refer to the SD server. If however, you’re volunteering to write the code… 
Change Your Password, Please and don’t use HTML, as it has been disabled
Well manhatten tell all the science guys the first thing they have to do is dump their Macs and get real computers… (oh, wrong thread, never mind)
OK, what really happened is I just used the Character Map utility under Programs/Accessories/System Tools and selected the ™ character. Yeah, I know, not so impressive when you look behind the wizard’s curtain.
You may kiss my ring now.
TT
“It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers.”
–James Thurber
Okay I can accept that, on of the few things I’ve never had to install on a server is message board software so I can’t comment on the limitations of such things.
The character map is a cool applet, but it is missing lots of goodies. For one thing, you can’t go any higher than X³, and this is one place where people love to throw big numbers around.
We cheat the other guys & pass the savings along to you!
Are the SDMB techies (techers?) reading this thread? If not, make 'em. I haven’t read anyone saying “I am a SDMB techie/er”, but I don’t know if that’s because they are regulars who dont want to be exposed, or if thay stay away because “That’s work.” Maybe they’d have some ideas?
It is too clear, and so it is hard to see.