# UHC and pre-existing conditions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 4, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-and-pre-existing-conditions/531347 "2010-03-04T23:23:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-and-pre-existing-conditions/531347/41 "2010-03-08T22:39:37Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Well, there are two cases here. One, he gets coverage, can’t pay for it and goes bankrupt, and the hospital will have to make up for it by charging other patients more, or he doesn’t get the treatment and dies. Assuming our OP is a productive member of society, and not 99, society actually loses out this way. > . If he does get the treatment but goes bankrupt as a result, the OP certainly loses this way also. As a result of the bankruptcy he’ll face higher interest rates or outright denial not only of credit but very likely also jobs and rented housing. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-and-pre-existing-conditions/531347/42 "2010-03-09T00:57:55Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > If he does get the treatment but goes bankrupt as a result, the OP certainly loses this way also. As a result of the bankruptcy he’ll face higher interest rates or outright denial not only of credit but very likely also jobs and rented housing. Quite true. Which result is worse we’ll leave as an exercise for the reader. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-and-pre-existing-conditions/531347/43 "2010-03-09T03:06:50Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I could go on, but this idea that the free market is to blame is not true when there is so much government intervention in the market. I hate this argument. Any time the market does not work well it’s just too easy to say that it’s because the govt intervened. If they did intervene, it’s probably because the market was not working well in the first place. We have food regulations because people were getting sick. We have bank regulations because millions of people lost their savings. We have labor regulations because children were working in poor conditions at near slave wages. Sure the govt is all over the place in healthcare, but on the other hand we live longer and stay healthier than ever before. Countries with more govt intervention are even healthier than we are. The only demographic in the US that is healthier than their counterparts in other industrialized country are those over 65, who strangely enough are the only group with universal coverage. This free market utopia stuff is getting old. The best results come from a free market with govt interference where needed. Knowing where to draw the line is difficult, but so is everything else about being an adult. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-and-pre-existing-conditions/531347/44 "2010-03-10T01:27:10Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > This free market utopia stuff is getting old. The best results come from a free market with govt interference where needed. Knowing where to draw the line is difficult, but so is everything else about being an adult. Fair enough, but it is equally irritating to keep hearing about how our “free market” health care system has failed when such a large portion of it (Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP, local and state subsidies) are controlled tightly by the government. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-and-pre-existing-conditions/531347/45 "2010-03-10T03:19:17Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > the current bill, which assumes miracles like $200b from ‘docfix’ and $500b from Medicare’s fraud/waste/abuse to pay for itself). Ending the huge and blatant subsidies to Medicare Advantage programs (where we, the taxpayers, do indeed shell out hundreds of billions per decade to the insurance companies to pay them to compete with Medicare) is hardly a hope for a miraculous finding of $500B of waste, fraud, and abuse. Thanks to the GOP’s earlier generosity to the insurance industry, diverting that gravy train really will pay for a hefty chunk of Obamacare. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-and-pre-existing-conditions/531347/46 "2010-03-11T22:21:48Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > It may be that _ **Every other industrialized country in the world has UHC, lower healthcare costs, and better results.** _ Aside from that I guess they just let their ideology get in the way of practicality.:rolleyes: This is arguable at best and I suspect that you already know this. You are also confusing the term “Cost” with “Price”. Government can lower the price of any good by fiat but it cannot reduce the true cost…hence closed hospitals in Britain, physicians refusing to treat Medicare patients here, and waiting lists for care in countries with UHC. That shiny government medical card doesn’t mean shit if you can’t get treatment. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-and-pre-existing-conditions/531347/47 "2010-03-11T22:58:06Z")
They don’t charge prices to people who use the system, and doctors aren’t paid on a per-test/operation/etc basis as far as I know, so why would there be confusion about price/cost here? They can track how much actual money is spent towards their health care system, and they pay less than us - both in actual monetary terms and as a percentage of their GDP. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-and-pre-existing-conditions/531347/48 "2010-03-11T23:16:19Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > This is arguable at best and I suspect that you already know this. You are also confusing the term “Cost” with “Price”. Government can lower the price of any good by fiat but it cannot reduce the true cost…hence closed hospitals in Britain, physicians refusing to treat Medicare patients here, and waiting lists for care in countries with UHC. That shiny government medical card doesn’t mean shit if you can’t get treatment. Given that health care consumes a much lower percentage of GDP in UHC countries, we can reason that the cost is lower also. (The price seen by the consumer is close to 0, but no one is arguing that is the cost.) Of course you need to consider the outcomes also - but they beat us in that respect also. The question is, is slightly faster access to a doctor for those who can afford it worth over 5% of our GDP. But we have plenty of firsthand testimony that this isn’t an issue in any case. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-and-pre-existing-conditions/531347/49 "2010-03-11T23:17:11Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > hence closed hospitals in Britain, physicians refusing to treat Medicare patients here, and waiting lists for care in countries with UHC. Hence closed hospitals in America, physicians refusing to treat Medicare patients here, and waiting lists in countries without UHC. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-and-pre-existing-conditions/531347/50 "2010-03-12T18:14:36Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Given that health care consumes a much lower percentage of GDP in UHC countries, we can reason that the cost is lower also. (The price seen by the consumer is close to 0, but no one is arguing that is the cost.) You are confusing lower costs with the refusal to pay the true costs. This is why the NHS built its entire system importing foreign doctors willing to work for less. This is also why the NHS runs deficits and has mandatory minimum waiting times. And deficits are projected to keep increasing: > **[Access Restricted](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1502994/Record-1bn-NHS-deficit-equals-huge-rise-in-cost-of-bureaucrats.html)** Also, the price seen by the consumer does have an impact on cost, and the fact that consumers see close to 0 can only result in an increase in the cost. > [@Voyager](#): > > Of course you need to consider the outcomes also - but they beat us in that respect also. The question is, is slightly faster access to a doctor for those who can afford it worth over 5% of our GDP. But we have plenty of firsthand testimony that this isn’t an issue in any case. I think this is arguable. Just one example on cancer survival rates: > **[Access Restricted](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1560849/UK-cancer-survival-rate-lowest-in-Europe.html)** It’s not hard to find information supporting either conclusion. But, even with equal outcomes, the fact that the system is imploding due to deficits should give anyone pause. Would we really be saving money or would we just be denying the true cost of healthcare? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-and-pre-existing-conditions/531347.md?page=2)