# UHC Should Be Recognized As A Fundamental Birthright. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 20, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-should-be-recognized-as-a-fundamental-birthright/533135 "2010-03-20T15:03:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-should-be-recognized-as-a-fundamental-birthright/533135/141 "2010-04-02T01:11:16Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You could certainly try. And I would be justified in smashing your skull with a coconut in order to protect those rights. An ability to violate someone’s rights does not invalidate them as rights. Do you really think that was my point? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-should-be-recognized-as-a-fundamental-birthright/533135/142 "2010-04-02T01:26:51Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > No, that’s YOUR definition of a right, it’s you transposing your desire to be left alone. We have the right to vote, we have the right to own property. The government has rights too, like taxation and putting the military in your guest bedroom. Very few of our rights actually have anything to do with being left alone. No, every single one of them do. Shodan already answered this, but just to reiterate, the government has no rights. Neither does my blender. People have rights. > [@](#): > > Sure enough, let’s go with it. I think we get left with the list you described: free speech, assembly, and religion. Here is the list of rights you just lost, because they don’t exist on an island, and have to be provided for you: > > - gun ownership and militias > - quartering of the military in your house > - search and seizure > - due process > - trial by jury > - cruel and unusual punishment > > I’m beginning to think you aren’t entirely familiar with the bill of rights. To echo Shodan, one of us isn’t, that seems certain. “Search and seizure” is not a right, it’s an offense against a right, one that still exists on a desert island–the right to be left alone when offering no provocation. I have the right to bear arms on an island. I haven’t lost that right because guns aren’t available. The right to do something doesn’t mean a guarantee you can. “Due process,” if we define this as a right, still exists on a desert island. It’s the right not to be subjected to the will of the majority without due diligence being exercised in minimizing that disruption. Same for “trial by jury.” (I’d argue that both of these are more social constructs than true rights.) In any event, all of these are essentially the right to be left the @#$% alone. > [@](#): > > Rights were a concept GIVEN to us by the government, which is why they are different from one country to another, and why they don’t exist WITHOUT a government. It was a concept made up, and that was the list they came up with during their corporate retreat. Given a bit more time they probably could have come up with more. Nope. Governments may as a practical matter recognize rights. But they don’t create them. > [@](#): > > Why don’t people in China have the right to free speech? Why should get they get it? They do have that right. It is routinely violated. They have that right because all people have the right to be left alone to express their own thoughts, provided that expression creates no undue problems for others. No, you don’t get to shout “fire” in a crowded theater for the sport of it. You do get to express your opinion. Or you should, including the Chinese. Because we all have the right to be left alone. ---
**Author:** ![mazinger\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mazinger\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazinger_z)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-should-be-recognized-as-a-fundamental-birthright/533135/143 "2010-04-02T01:40:43Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > All the rolleyes aside, let’s look at this 14th amendment: It was enacted in 1868, but didn’t our Creator give us our inalienable rights 1789? > > What do you suppose the discussion was like before 1868? Well, aside from the civil war, do you suppose it involved a lot of, “it’s too expensive, we already have all the rights we need, that would be an active right, rights are passive…” > > It should be clear how flawed the Bill of Rights was at it’s conception, and continues to need refinement. Occasionally it misses things like Miranda rights, which are decidedly NOT passive. > > This whole mess started when Stratocaster insinuated that we can’t make health care a right because the government would have to give us something. I disagree. I honestly don’t know why you keep bringing up this Creator stuff. The idea that all men have basic inalienable rights is the basic tenet of having civilized society. It is to balance the notion of free will against living in and interacting with other people. Basically, re-read **Sam Stone’s** post. It’s like saying that supply can exist without demand. I remember from my history classes that the 1700-1800s was a time when feudalism as a political force was ending, great empires were ending. The new governments at the time were fooling around with mercantilism, practical applications of freedom/enlightenment, and just beginning to understand the tenets of free trade. The old ways of feudalism and slavery had not died yet. There had to be serious compromises made in order to form this union. Look at the fate of the Continental Congress and those efforts. It is not that we are all smarter that we can now have access to health care, it’s because we are wealthy. The argument you make is not one of enlightenment, but rather of wealth distribution. That’s fine and all, if you can square it away with this notion of basic inalienable rights, which I, and many others, do not think is possible. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-should-be-recognized-as-a-fundamental-birthright/533135/144 "2010-04-02T01:49:09Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > This whole mess started when Stratocaster insinuated that we can’t make health care a right because the government would have to give us something. I disagree. You’re all over the place, aren’t you? Do you think anyone disagrees with the notion that we all have the right to pursue our own health care? Why do you keep coming back to this as if anyone disagrees with it? That right already exists. We may all purchase our own health care as we wish, to the extent our resources permit it. We should all be left alone to make and execute such decisions. The OP asserts that UHC is a birthright. UHC, by definition, means the government will provide it where it can’t be obtained by someone. That’s something different entirely. UHC actually means something. It doesn’t mean what you’d prefer it did. To repeat, so that you don’t offer this blather yet one more time, no one (me included) has suggested in this thread that the right to pursue one’s health care, as one sees fit, to the extent one’s resources permit, is not as it should be. That’s a damned fine right, one that already exists. It is NOT UHC. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-should-be-recognized-as-a-fundamental-birthright/533135/145 "2010-04-02T14:53:45Z")
**emacknight** , I would really like to know if you understand the distinction between an active and a passive right. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-should-be-recognized-as-a-fundamental-birthright/533135/146 "2010-04-02T14:57:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > **emacknight** , I would really like to know if you understand the distinction between an active and a passive right. > > Regards, > Shodan Yes I do. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-should-be-recognized-as-a-fundamental-birthright/533135/147 "2010-04-02T15:42:28Z")
Very good. Are you suggesting that health care is an active right, or a passive right? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-should-be-recognized-as-a-fundamental-birthright/533135/148 "2010-04-02T16:16:13Z")
Passive. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-should-be-recognized-as-a-fundamental-birthright/533135/149 "2010-04-02T18:53:47Z")
If it’s passive, how to you ensure the universal access you claim is fundamental to this right? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-should-be-recognized-as-a-fundamental-birthright/533135/150 "2010-04-02T19:15:53Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > If it’s passive, how to you ensure the universal access you claim is fundamental to this right? The same way we do for the other passive rights. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-should-be-recognized-as-a-fundamental-birthright/533135/151 "2010-04-02T19:32:21Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > The same way we do for the other passive rights. We do not guarantee universal access for passive rights like gun ownership or free speech. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-should-be-recognized-as-a-fundamental-birthright/533135/152 "2010-04-02T19:48:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We do not guarantee universal access for passive rights like gun ownership or free speech. > > Regards, > Shodan So? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uhc-should-be-recognized-as-a-fundamental-birthright/533135.md?page=7)