# UK attacked France in 1940 in WW 2 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 15, 2020, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-attacked-france-in-1940-in-ww-2/849529 "2020-03-15T12:34:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-attacked-france-in-1940-in-ww-2/849529/1 "2020-03-15T12:34:35Z")
Just read about this . Almost 1300 French killed. They were trying to prevent the Nazis from taking over the French fleet after France surrendered. > **[Attack on Mers-el-Kébir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-el-K%C3%A9bir)** > > 1941 > 1942 > 1943 ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-attacked-france-in-1940-in-ww-2/849529/2 "2020-03-15T13:51:18Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Just read about this . Almost 1300 French killed. Oh wow, there are going to be repercussions. Snark aside, that was not a shining moment in Anglo-French relations. Bad moves on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-attacked-france-in-1940-in-ww-2/849529/3 "2020-03-15T13:54:21Z")
Give the British an opportunity to show up the French and [even odds they’ll take it](https://youtu.be/6zq7sey8rCc?t=1667). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-attacked-france-in-1940-in-ww-2/849529/4 "2020-03-15T13:57:34Z")
Yeah, well, don’t make deals with Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-attacked-france-in-1940-in-ww-2/849529/5 "2020-03-15T14:39:32Z")
The French Navy should have been turned over to the UK before the surrender to Germany. What the French did was shameful. They’re wrong in this. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-attacked-france-in-1940-in-ww-2/849529/6 "2020-03-15T14:49:10Z")
Those ships sure could’ve helped the allies. In the end, the French navy finished the job [a year later](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling_of_the_French_fleet_at_Toulon) when (surprise, surprise) the Nazis wouldn’t allow the French to retain hold of a standing naval force. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-attacked-france-in-1940-in-ww-2/849529/7 "2020-03-15T15:21:14Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Oh wow, there are going to be repercussions. > > Snark aside, that was not a shining moment in Anglo-French relations. Bad moves on both sides. It was a horrible thing for the British to have to do, but they had to do it. Allowing the Germans to have that fleet was a risk that absolutely could not have been taken. If the Germans took those ships, as the British quite reasonably suspected they would, the German fleet would have been instantly vastly more powerful. As it was, the few capital ships the Germans had were a big problem for the Allies; it took half the Royal Navy to sink Bismarck and she took HMS Hood with her. Tirpitz wasa strategic problem the whole war, though she never fought much. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau actually caught and sank an aircraft carrier - I am quite certain the only example of capital ships sinking a carrier with gunfire - and were a thorn in the Allies’ side over and over. Those were the only four battleships Germany ever had during the war; to double the size of their capital ship fleet was absolutely unacceptable. We NOW know that 1. The French navy legitimately had no intention of handing the ships over, and 2. At the time, Germany was wary of taking the fleet because they were afraid if they tried, the French would sail off to the UK. They gave it a try two years later but weren’t going to in 1940. But the British could not have known either of these things for sure at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-attacked-france-in-1940-in-ww-2/849529/8 "2020-03-15T15:29:29Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Just read about this . Almost 1300 French killed. They were trying to prevent the Nazis from taking over the French fleet after France surrendered. > > [Attack on Mers-el-Kébir - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-el-K%C3%A9bir) Previous discussion [Why in WW2 did the French scuttle their warships rather than turn them over to BritainF - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=748082) WWII was weird. See also the Battle of Madagascar between the French and Japanese on one side and the British on the other… ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-attacked-france-in-1940-in-ww-2/849529/9 "2020-03-15T15:43:44Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Previous discussion [Why in WW2 did the French scuttle their warships rather than turn them over to BritainF - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=748082) > > WWII was weird. See also the Battle of Madagascar between the French and Japanese on one side and the British on the other… Other WWII weirdness - just before the collapse of France, the UK and France were considering union [Franco-British Union - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-British_Union#World_War_II_(1940)) > [@](#): > > The final “Declaration of union” approved by the British War Cabinet stated that[1] > > ``` > France and Great Britain shall no longer be two nations, but one Franco-British Union. The constitution of the Union will provide for joint organs of defence, foreign, financial and economic policies. Every citizen of France will enjoy immediately citizenship of Great Britain, every British subject will become a citizen of France." > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-attacked-france-in-1940-in-ww-2/849529/10 "2020-03-15T16:30:37Z")
Here is a truly excellent video made about the MSK attack, going into details about exactly what happened, who was involved, and when. Most specifically, he hones in on the one person who had the ability and responsibility for avoiding bloodshed, and who failed to act. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/1aoi33VAAO4/maxresdefault.jpg "Mers-el-Kebir - Tragedy on a Grand Scale") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aoi33VAAO4) ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2020, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-attacked-france-in-1940-in-ww-2/849529/11 "2020-03-15T21:37:48Z")
Another lesser known ally-vs-ally event was the US occupation of Iceland during WWII. Actually, it was months before the US entered WWII. The UK had already taken it over after Denmark fell to keep it out of Nazi hands. (Iceland was a ~independent country but tied to the UK’s, and later the US’s, ally Denmark.) They wanted their occupation troops to be used elsewhere, the US offered to take over. The US also invaded those French islands off Canada which ticked off Churchill. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-attacked-france-in-1940-in-ww-2/849529/12 "2020-03-16T01:00:43Z")
Japan controlled 2 Aleutian islands for almost a year before they were defeated in 2 battles: [Aleutian Islands campaign - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleutian_Islands_campaign) Alaska was a territory at that time. Became a state in 1959 along with Hawaii. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-attacked-france-in-1940-in-ww-2/849529/13 "2020-03-16T06:20:58Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Another lesser known ally-vs-ally event was the US occupation of Iceland during WWII. Actually, it was months before the US entered WWII. The UK had already taken it over after Denmark fell to keep it out of Nazi hands. (Iceland was a ~independent country but tied to the UK’s, and later the US’s, ally Denmark.) They wanted their occupation troops to be used elsewhere, the US offered to take over. > > The US also invaded those French islands off Canada which ticked off Churchill. Another area where American troops were deployed that I think most people are unaware of is Northern Ireland. There was a substantial amount of American troops deployed there throughout the war. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-attacked-france-in-1940-in-ww-2/849529/14 "2020-03-16T06:28:54Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Became a state in 1959 along with Hawaii. Nitpicking but while both became states in 1959, it wasn’t simultaneous. Alaska became a state on January 3 and Hawaii became a state on August 21. This was due to intense lobbying by flag manufacturers, who wanted to force people to buy two new flags in an eight month period. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2020, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-attacked-france-in-1940-in-ww-2/849529/15 "2020-03-16T12:10:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Another area where American troops were deployed that I think most people are unaware of is Northern Ireland. There was a substantial amount of American troops deployed there throughout the war. My father went to USAAF code school in N. Ireland as his first overseas assignment. (Then N. Africa and Italy.) There’s nothing really special about it, it’s just like serving in Scotland or Wales.