# UK Court bans man with low IQ from having sex **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 8, 2011, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631 "2011-02-08T06:57:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Trubie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/71c47a/32.png) [@Trubie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trubie)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631/21 "2011-02-08T20:54:38Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > I’m not sure why, but I have different feelings on this based purely on the fact that it’s two guys. Since there’s no danger of procreation, it doesn’t bother me at all. If it were a woman with a 46 IQ wanting to have sex with a man, I’d have a big problem with it, because I don’t think she could understand the potential consequences, nor could she properly care for a child. But two dudes? Teach him how to use a condom and have at it. I don’t understand what the big deal is either. It’s not like he wants kids. He’s probably gay. I say probably because I’ve heard people that suffer from these type of mental problem tend to not be able to control themselves sexually. So, he might be interested in intercourse with a woman. ---
**Author:** ![Pyper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pyper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pyper)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631/22 "2011-02-08T20:58:46Z")
An IQ of 48 is similar to the mental capacity of a 5 or 6 year old child. My feelings on the case depend on the functioning of the other man. If he is a normally functioning adult, it feels creepy. There are too many issues of unfair advantage. But if both men are mentally retarded, frankly I can’t get too upset about it. Although I equated his IQ with that of a child, the mentally retarded man is not a child, but an adult with adult urges like everybody else. I remember reading an article about sex between persons with dementia that touches on similar issues of consent. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631/23 "2011-02-08T21:05:28Z")
> [@Kelby](#): > > Moderate “learning disability” is a misnomer, here. Maybe they’re trying to be PC, but 48 IQ falls into the moderate range of mental retardation. “Learning disability” is the usual term used in the UK mental health profession for all levels of disability. There may have been some degree of political correctness about it originally, but that’s what it’s been for over twenty years, so it’s just what we call it now. > [@ratatoskK](#): > > So did they ban the other guy from having sex as well? It doesn’t make any sense. It says he has a relationship with this other guy and it didn’t sound like the other guy was complaining about it. There’s not enough information there (quite rightly, probably) for us to come to any sensible conclusions about this. If I had to guess, though (and I don’t, but I’m going to anyway) I’d suspect that “Alan’s” carers felt that “Kieron” was abusing him, and that “Alan” simply didn’t have the capacity to understand that he was being taken advantage of. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631/24 "2011-02-08T21:13:30Z")
> [@WotNot](#): > > …I’d suspect that “Alan’s” carers felt that “Kieron” was abusing him, and that “Alan” simply didn’t have the capacity to understand that he was being taken advantage of. Is it “abuse” if Alan likes it? Can this be right if Alan is less happy now than he was before they intervened? And if somebody “being taken advantage of” is reason enough for state intervention in personal relationships, the UK courts have their work cut out for them for a long, long time. ---
**Author:** ![The\_wind\_of\_my\_soul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@The\_wind\_of\_my\_soul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_wind_of_my_soul)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631/25 "2011-02-08T21:16:49Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Is it “abuse” if Alan likes it? Can this be right if Alan is less happy now than he was before they intervened? > > And if somebody “being taken advantage of” is reason enough for state intervention in personal relationships, the UK courts have their work cut out for them for a long, long time. Would it be abuse if a six year old liked it? ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631/26 "2011-02-08T21:19:34Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > But two dudes? Teach him how to use a condom and have at it. It sounds like this is the issue (teaching him that he needs to use a condom). The article quoted in the OP says: > [@](#): > > [H]e did not have the mental capacity to understand the health risks associated with his actions. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631/27 "2011-02-08T22:06:07Z")
> [@Foggy](#): > > I don’t know how I feel about this. On one hand it seems unfair, but then I can kind of understand the concern. I’m not sure what an IQ of 48 means or what a vigorous sex drive means either. With an IQ that low the question of whether or not the man is capable of informed consent does arise, either consent on the part of the low-IQ individual or the low-IQ man determining whether or not someone else is consenting. It’s a pretty low level of intellect. In this case, “vigorous sex drive” probably means _normal_ sex drive for a man his age, but he man not have the capacity to restrain his impulses very well. A lot of people seem to somone think that if a man has the intellectual capacity of only a young child he’ll also somehow be asexual. Nope. If he’s physically adult and has hormones he’ll have the sex drive of a fully adult male human. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631/28 "2011-02-08T22:43:27Z")
> [@The\_wind\_of\_my\_soul](#): > > Would it be abuse if a six year old liked it? I certainly think so. I believe in making a categorical distinction between the rights and protections afforded to children, and those of adults. I have not yet been persuaded that such distinctions can or should be made among adults who score differently on IQ tests. ---
**Author:** ![Kelby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a587f6/32.png) [@Kelby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kelby)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631/29 "2011-02-08T22:44:25Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > With an IQ that low the question of whether or not the man is capable of informed consent does arise, either consent on the part of the low-IQ individual or the low-IQ man determining whether or not someone else is consenting. It’s a pretty low level of intellect. > > In this case, “vigorous sex drive” probably means _normal_ sex drive for a man his age, **but he man not have the capacity to restrain his impulses very well.** A lot of people seem to somone think that if a man has the intellectual capacity of only a young child he’ll also somehow be asexual. Nope. If he’s physically adult and has hormones he’ll have the sex drive of a fully adult male human. Yes, the mentally deficient are often less inhibited in the expression of their physical urges than typical folks. I once had the task of counseling a group of moderately delayed teenage boys about the impropriety of masturbating collectively in the boys shower at a high school. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631/30 "2011-02-08T23:14:15Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > I certainly think so. I believe in making a categorical distinction between the rights and protections afforded to children, and those of adults. I have not yet been persuaded that such distinctions can or should be made among adults who score differently on IQ tests. [Here’s](http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2011/02/03/should-people-with-low-iqs-be-banned-from-sex/) a summary of the judge’s reasoning, and [here’s](http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/COP/2011/101.html) the full text of the judgement. Note that Alan is to be given sex education, and a fresh assessment will be made in nine months time. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631/31 "2011-02-08T23:26:52Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > A lot of people seem to somone think that if a man has the intellectual capacity of only a young child he’ll also somehow be asexual. Nope. If he’s physically adult and has hormones he’ll have the sex drive of a fully adult male human. Is this always the case? If you read about men with Down syndrome usually being sterile, several of the studies say that this might only be because of ignorance of the sex act, not that they are necessarily physically incapable of impregnating a woman. It’s hard to imagine that they wouldn’t figure something out if they had a normal sex drive. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631/32 "2011-02-08T23:31:09Z")
So it’s not a matter of mental capacity per se, but of sex education? Is it then (or should it be) illegal for adults who are simply ignorant of STD pathologies (or the mechanics of pregnancy) to have sex? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631/33 "2011-02-09T01:34:10Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Is this always the case? If you read about men with Down syndrome usually being sterile, several of the studies say that this might only be because of ignorance of the sex act, not that they are necessarily physically incapable of impregnating a woman. It’s hard to imagine that they wouldn’t figure something out if they had a normal sex drive. There’s actually no indication that the man in the OP story has Down’s as opposed to some other form of retardation. And he’s clearly NOT ignorant of sexual activity. From what I know (which is admittedly limited) most retarded people do figure out masturbation (indeed, the article indicates that Alan is allowed to masturbate when alone in his room). ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631/34 "2011-02-09T02:26:47Z")
It’s important to note that this gentleman’s sex life only came to the attention of anyone because of two incidents when he allegedly made inappropriate gestures in the presence of children. Of course we know that things which would be dealt with via a “people are people” or “please don’t do that” with people of average intelligence are treated as crises when people with mental impairments are involved and reported to authorities as terribly frightening and dangerous events. In one instance, he apparently scratched himself through his pants, then licked his lips, then talked to a child in a dentist’s waiting room. This was a “worrying incident.” It’s also worth noting that the assessment in nine month’s time (which is quite a long period of time to be forcibly separated from your partner with no contact whatsoever, and I can’t understand why there was no provision for supervised visitation, at least) is to teach him the _health_ issues in relation to sexual activity, but there’s no note that he’ll be taught about consent, that he can say no when he’s disinterested, that no one has a right to force him to do anything. So it’s unclear whose interest is really being protected here, and how those consent issues (based upon his intellectual capability) that were discussed in the case are going to be resolved if that’s not a part of the ordered education. This whole thing is a complete mess. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631/35 "2011-02-09T02:48:42Z")
I feel like something is missing; like we’re not getting the whole story here. And it shouldn’t matter if it’s a man or a woman just because a woman can get pregnant. He has the mentality of a boy my daughter’s age. She can’t consent to sex and I can’t see how he can either. He wants to “kiss them again”. He thinks the stork brings babies. How could he possibly be able to give consent? Take it from someone who was molested as a six year old. Sometimes you want it to continue because it’s the only attention or affection you get even if it scares you and hurts you. That may be all he really needs but doesn’t really know how to express it. Or maybe yeah his dick is getting hard and he knows what makes it feel better. But he shouldn’t because people had no business fucking with him in the first place. Jesus he’s like a child! I guess I’m a little to close to this, being his mental age when I was molested, and having a child that age now, trying to imagine how she could ever be considered mentally fit to have sex at her age. Sure she’s not physically fit but she’s not fit in ANY way for such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631/36 "2011-02-09T02:52:26Z")
Dammit when will I learn to read ALL posts before commenting! I knew that article was missing something. ---
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631/37 "2011-02-09T03:02:44Z")
> [@llcoolbj77](#): > > How do they even determine IQ’s lower than say, 60? > > I have read a number of psychological evals, particularly of kids, which include IQ calculations. A lot of the evaluations seem to be based on self report instruments and multiple choice-type diagnostics. > > What kind of diagnostic can realistically show an IQ difference of between 45 and 50 with any efficacy? How does one with an IQ of 50 actually participate? And what does that even mean? > > And even if the guy’s IQ is super low, does that not mean that he can’t appreciate intimacy? psychologist gf does this for a living. I understand that the tests are administered and are not the same tests you or I would take. ---
**Author:** ![The\_wind\_of\_my\_soul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@The\_wind\_of\_my\_soul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_wind_of_my_soul)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631/38 "2011-02-09T13:40:47Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > In this case, “vigorous sex drive” probably means _normal_ sex drive for a man his age, but he man not have the capacity to restrain his impulses very well. A lot of people seem to somone think that if a man has the intellectual capacity of only a young child he’ll also somehow be asexual. Nope. If he’s physically adult and has hormones he’ll have the sex drive of a fully adult male human. You seem to be implying that a young child does not have a sex drive. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631/39 "2011-02-09T13:45:27Z")
> [@The\_wind\_of\_my\_soul](#): > > You seem to be implying that a young child does not have a sex drive. As someone who at one point was a young child, they don’t have much of one if any. Certainly nothing like we have when older. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631/40 "2011-02-09T14:04:22Z")
**Wind** , I’m not sure where you get that. Although a lot of people think children _don’t_ have any sexual impulses, though how those people explain toddlers masturbating and playing doctor with the opposite gender I don’t know. It’s pretty obvious to me, though, that the sex drive of an adult man is different than that of a 6 year old. Doesn’t mean a 6 year old doesn’t have impulse, just less intense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-court-bans-man-with-low-iq-from-having-sex/570631.md?page=3)