# UK Dopers comment, please...

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495>\
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\
**Created:** [November 6, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495 "2009-11-06T00:24:23Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\
**Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495/21 "2009-11-06T12:22:17Z")

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> [@MHaye](#):
>
> The Guardian was, iirc, read by the people who think they ought to run the country.

And the Daily Telegraph and Daily Mail aren’t?

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**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\
**Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495/22 "2009-11-06T12:28:16Z")

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1. No.

2. He sounds like a dick.

3. I lean towards the latter too, but there is an outside chance that he had had enough of Americans saying “I’m [nationality with usually highly tenuous link to the individual in question]” that occasionally annoys us Euros, and snapped or something. (The most common being “I’m Irish” - which I do now understand, that “Irish” is shorthand for “Irish American”.)

I’m English but I support Ireland in international rugby, and wear my Irish rugby shirt during matches - nobody’s ever complained.

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**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\
**Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495/23 "2009-11-06T12:28:37Z")

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I’m from Britain and I’d even be happy if you burned the jumper.

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**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\
**Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495/24 "2009-11-06T12:53:04Z")

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> [@Scheidt-Hoch](#):
>
> And the Daily Telegraph and Daily Mail aren’t?

Not in this joke. The full version, IIRC, is something like:

The Times is read by people who run the country; The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country; The Telegraph is read by people who think they still run the country; The Mail is read by the wives of people who run the country; The Sun is read by people who don’t care who runs the country, as long as she’s got big tits.

As for the confrontation in the OP, the guy was an arsehole. The best I can say for him is that, as mentioned, it can be quite annoying to hear “Oh, you’re Scottish? That’s great, I’m Scottish too” from people who mistake having 1 out of 128 distant ancestors leave the country 200 years ago, liking Braveheart and spending one vacation buying shortbread tins on the Royal Mile for actually being a member of a nation. But as you’re not one of those people, nor had you even said anything to him to suggest you might be, his outburst was as misjudged as it was boorish.

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**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\
**Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495/25 "2009-11-06T13:11:23Z")

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> [@amrussell](#):
>
> Not in this joke. The full version, IIRC, is something like:
> 
> The Times is read by people who run the country; The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country; The Telegraph is read by people who think they still run the country; The Mail is read by the wives of people who run the country; The Sun is read by people who don’t care who runs the country, as long as she’s got big tits.

It’s from _Yes, Prime Minister:_

> [@](#):
>
> **Hacker:** Don’t tell me about the press. I know exactly who reads the papers:  
> The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country;  
> The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country;  
> The Times is read by the people who actually do run the country;  
> The Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country;  
> The Financial Times is read by people who own the country;  
> The Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country;  
> And The Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is.
> 
> **Sir Humphrey:** Prime Minister, what about the people who read The Sun?
> 
> **Bernard:** Sun readers don’t care who runs the country, as long as she’s got big tits.

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**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\
**Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495/26 "2009-11-06T13:39:23Z")

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> [@amrussell](#):
>
> Not in this joke.

Sorry, that whooshed over my head. Having said that, that episode was written some decades ago and things might not be quite the same now.

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**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\
**Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495/27 "2009-11-06T13:59:06Z")

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> [@kidneyfailure](#):
>
> Could this possibly be a manifestation of that “British anti-Americanism” we often read about ([http://tinyurl.com/yjvoxdx](http://tinyurl.com/yjvoxdx)) or was the guy just a moron? I’m leaning towards the latter…

By the way, IMO this article is inflammatory rubbish. Even if it was meant as a joke, it is completely untrue that on Radio 4, or anywhere else, you will hear, explicitly or implicitly “At least we’re not as bad as the Americans.” Even if that WTC reaction was true, it was utterly unrepresentative. To give a few uncorroborated examples of British thugs, liars and racists, and imply that they are representative of either the Guardian readership or the British people is deeply offensive.

And tides, on the Thames and elsewhere, only rise and fall twice a day.

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**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\
**Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495/28 "2009-11-06T13:59:58Z")

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To be honest, apart from during football games and nazi rallies, the ONLY people who wear the Union Jack are foreigners, generally as a fashion item.

We’re really not big into flag waving. Overt patriotism borders on fascism in our preception. Not the done thing.

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**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\
**Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495/29 "2009-11-06T14:06:31Z")

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I think apparel with national flags on them cheapen national flags, having said that your man was an ass.

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**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\
**Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495/30 "2009-11-06T14:07:32Z")

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> [@SanVito](#):
>
> To be honest, apart from during football games and nazi rallies, the ONLY people who wear the Union Jack are foreigners, generally as a fashion item.
> 
> We’re really not big into flag waving. Overt patriotism borders on fascism in our preception. Not the done thing.

Ginger Spice (circa 1996) and girls who want to look like Ginger Spice (circa 1996). 🙂

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**Author:** ![not\_austin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c68b51/32.png) [@not\_austin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_austin)\
**Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495/31 "2009-11-06T14:17:59Z")

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You should have told him you were wearing 1/4th of the Australian flag…

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**Author:** ![Elysian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c77e96/32.png) [@Elysian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elysian)\
**Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495/32 "2009-11-06T14:39:38Z")

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Heh, there are quite a few NASCAR fans over here in England. Perhaps I should tell them to stop wearing the shirts.

Not only that, I’ve seen NFL shirts, university sweaters, “I \<3” shirts, and tons with American logos. The guy I’m working for now has many items of Americana on his shelves, including this absolutely HIDEOUS figurine of a woman with “God Bless the USA” emblazoned on it. Makes me shield my eyes. It was made in China anyway, which makes me happy.

The guy I share my workspace with is leaving for Salt Lake City over Christmas, where he has friends here. A lot of people here visit America and love taking the opportunity to talk to me all about it. I have seen a few people with American flag shirts, those stylised ones where the flag’s all wrapped around.

Should I tell all those people to stop this behaviour? The enthusiasm for each other’s culture goes both ways.

However…I would say you’re going a bit overboard with the “England is my country too” bit. There are a lot of English people (not the fine people on this board of course, but a lot) who dislike foreigners and immigrants as a general rule, and find enthusiasm for their country deeply suspicious.

I have been here two years and may be here for the rest of my life, and I will probably never by English. My grandfather’s grandfather may have been from here, but that doesn’t make me English. I knew a lady who lived here for fifty years, raised children, married a Brit, died here, but never was referred to or referred to herself as English.

Perhaps it is better to say you admire the country?

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**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\
**Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495/33 "2009-11-06T14:42:05Z")

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> [@An\_Gadai](#):
>
> I think apparel with national flags on them cheapen national flags, having said that your man was an ass.

This, obviously, depends on what symbolism you think your flag has. To me, it’s only a visual identifier, but I know many people imbue it with much more significance than that.

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**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\
**Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495/34 "2009-11-06T15:06:01Z")

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> [@NineToTheSky](#):
>
> This, obviously, depends on what symbolism you think your flag has. To me, it’s only a visual identifier, but I know many people imbue it with much more significance than that.

Ah most definitely, merely my personal opinion. I think the trend, in general, is towards flags being more and more appropriated for merchandise, branding, fashion, etc. Whoever makes those miniature Canadian flags for backpacks is raking in the cash. 🙂

It is worth noting the differing contextual significance of something like a Union Jack. In NYC and elsewhere it is shorthand for punk or The Who fandom. In Northern Ireland it is a divisive, loaded political symbol. In Gibraltar, Canada, The Falklands and elsewhere it means slightly differing things.

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**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\
**Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495/35 "2009-11-06T15:22:28Z")

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> [@SanVito](#):
>
> To be honest, apart from during football games and nazi rallies, the ONLY people who wear the Union Jack are foreigners, generally as a fashion item.

Of course, the irony of having a Union Jack while supporting England is totally lost on the flag wavers. :smack:

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**Author:** ![scareyfaerie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scareyfaerie/32/3135_2.png) [@scareyfaerie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scareyfaerie)\
**Post date:** [November 6, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495/36 "2009-11-06T15:23:35Z")

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> [@Elysian](#):
>
> I have been here two years and may be here for the rest of my life, and I will probably never by English.

For a lot of people, it is the simple belief that if you were not born in England then you cannot claim to be English. You take your nationality from the country you were born in, plain and simple. Your ancestors might have been 100% English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh or Outer Mongolian, but that makes not a jot of difference because **you** weren’t born there!

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**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495/37 "2009-11-07T00:21:09Z")

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Whoa, ok, too many things to reply to here. Let me tackle these as best I can:

1. I should mention that the embroidered logo on my sweater isn’t any overt display of “in-your-face” British iconography, or anything. It’s actually quite small, maybe only about two inches on either side. Generally, I don’t like clothing with logos on them, but that one looked tasteful so I bought it. It’s not at all like the “GOD BLESS THE USA” shirts you see around, with the huge Statue of Liberty or an eagle or something. Beside this one article of clothing, I don’t think I have anything else with a national symbol of any country on it.

2. _there is an outside chance that he had had enough of Americans saying “I’m [nationality with usually highly tenuous link to the individual in question]” that occasionally annoys us Euros, and snapped or something._

Possibly, and I would understand if that had been the case, but I actually didn’t say anything about England, being a British-American, or anything like that. All I said was, “I’m not from the UK, I’m American,” and then he got all terse and walked off. It was a weird experience. FWIW, that guy got into an argument with our boss last night. I don’t think he’ll be around much longer.

3)"\*Perhaps it is better to say you admire the country?" \*

Hmmm, maybe. Although it seems that many of you didn’t care much for the article I linked, there was one important detail mentioned in it that I think is true: Many Americans do see the UK as their “motherland,” even if their families left it 200 years ago, and, thus, would be more apt to consider it “our country” as much as America. I find this to be a much more common trend in the US (self-identification with another country) than in many other places. Any guesses as to why?

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**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495/38 "2009-11-07T00:24:19Z")

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> [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](#):
>
> Of course, the irony of having a Union Jack while supporting England is totally lost on the flag wavers. :smack:

As is the irony of waving a Union Jack at a Nazi rally…

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**Author:** ![Elysian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c77e96/32.png) [@Elysian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elysian)\
**Post date:** [November 7, 2009, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495/39 "2009-11-07T11:58:45Z")

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> [@kidneyfailure](#):
>
> I actually didn’t say anything about England, being a British-American, or anything like that. All I said was, “I’m not from the UK, I’m American,” and then he got all terse and walked off. It was a weird experience. FWIW, that guy got into an argument with our boss last night. I don’t think he’ll be around much longer.

In that case, perhaps you should have explained your close familial ties to the area. He may have just wanted to talk about it, and your terseness made him be terse back. You never know, and of course I’m just postulating because I wasn’t there.

> [@kidneyfailure](#):
>
> 3)“\*Perhaps it is better to say you admire the country?” \*
> 
> Hmmm, maybe. Although it seems that many of you didn’t care much for the article I linked, there was one important detail mentioned in it that I think is true: Many Americans do see the UK as their “motherland,” even if their families left it 200 years ago, and, thus, would be more apt to consider it “our country” as much as America. I find this to be a much more common trend in the US (self-identification with another country) than in many other places. Any guesses as to why?

Yes, lots of people have familial ties. I can point to all branches of my family and say they came from places in the UK. Plus the stuff we’re taught in school, the great plays, the history, mostly comes from here. We’re kind of steeped in the stuff, so Americans consider it a part of them.

Also interesting is that English people feel entirely comfortable around me, enough to slag off immigrants. I will sometimes joking point out that…uh…I also happen to be an immigrant. They will tell me that’s different. I speak English, albeit with an accent, and I’m white, and educated, and not hideously malformed. (Joking about the last one, but all others have actually been said to me to my face.) But I am unalterably and will remain unalterably American.

I’m still figuring things out but it’s fascinating…

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**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\
**Post date:** [November 8, 2009, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-comment-please/516495/40 "2009-11-08T04:35:10Z")

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_I_ wouldn’t wear anything with a Union flag on it, but um, you can probably put my username and location together and work out why.

I do admit that I was recently watching an American show (Modern Family or The Mentalist, not sure) and a young boy was wearing a knitted jumper with a Union flag on it and I did a double take. Similar reaction to a scene in another show of an American teenager’s bedroom with a Union flag poster on the wall- clearly as a fashion statement. The immediate thought was “huh, that’s a bit odd” followed by “I suppose that’s what American kids think is cool”.

I get that it is a fashion icon dating from the 1960s, but to me it’s just a little odd.  
Not "how dare you wear or display the flag of a nation other than your own " odd, more “I don’t get why you would want to wear or display the flag of another nation” odd.

Having said that:  
You should feel free to wear whatever you like.  
He’s an idiot.

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