# UK Dopers: Is Parliament always this much fun? Mr. Duncan Smith vs. his own party... **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 6, 2002, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606 "2002-11-06T20:47:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606/1 "2002-11-06T20:47:22Z")
Is Parliament always this much fun? I’m not pretending to understand all of it, but it’s apparently Mr. Duncan Smith vs. his own party, and it sounds like a cross between a rugby match and the Jerry Springer show. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk\_news/politics/2408255.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2408255.stm) **Round One.** > [@](#): > > On Tuesday, Mr Duncan Smith had dramatically reacted to a party rebellion over gay adoption by appealing to his party to “unite or die”. > > The embattled Tory leader, referring to efforts to “undermine” him, told a packed press conference that the Conservatives “cannot go on in this fashion”. Mr. Duncan Smith [rants](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2404979.stm), in best Jerry Springer fashion. “You elected me your leader, and look at all this hard work I’ve done, and it was _all_ for _you_, and now you’re going behind my back, and you’re going to utterly destroy _everything_ I’ve worked for, well, you’re just shooting yourself in the foot, I hope you know that, but I’m not gonna let you DO it, no, we’re going to work together, and we’re going to _salvage_ this relationship, or die trying… [snif]…” **Round Two.** > [@](#): > > But the appeal triggered an angry response from Mr Clarke and Mr Portillo, who were among Monday night’s House of Commons rebels. > > [Mr. Clarke and Mr. Portillo] denied they had ulterior motives, with Mr Portillo accusing Mr Duncan Smith of “unwarranted misinterpretation”… > > Mr Portillo told the BBC on Wednesday outside his London home that he did not know why Mr Duncan Smith had accused some Tory MPs of plotting against his leadership. **Round Three.** > [@](#): > > Mr Clarke said if there was a crisis over Mr Smith’s leadership it was “entirely self-induced”. > > He also said talk of plots was “slightly absurd” and “we shouldn’t run ourselves in this way”. **Round Four.** > [@](#): > > But already there is talk in Westminster that he and Mr Clarke are preparing to unite to form a “dream ticket” challenge to Mr Duncan Smith’s leadership. **Round Five.** > [@](#): > > Another rebel, Anthony Steen, said Mr Duncan Smith was “murally dyslexic” because he “couldn’t read the writing on the wall”. **Round Six.** > [@](#): > > Earlier on Wednesday, Lady Thatcher entered the row over the future of the Conservatives, saying the party will never die. > > The former Conservative prime minister, speaking at an event to meet veterans of the Falklands War, said: “The Tory party will last… I don’t know about Mr Duncan Smith because in the end we all die, but the party doesn’t.” You Brits have all the fun. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606/2 "2002-11-06T20:58:52Z")
Why can’t our U.S. politicians say something as clever as “murally dyslexic”? What a great turn of the phrase. Instead we get “There’s an old saying in Tennessee – I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee…that says, fool me once, shame on…shame on you. Fool me twice … you can’t get fooled again” ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606/3 "2002-11-06T22:10:34Z")
It’s not just British politics, it’s very much a Conservative thing. The Conservative party has basically split into two wings with very little in common. One side is younger, pro-EU, more squeamish in making moral pronouncements - and the other is older, deeply suspicious of the EU and very keen on traditional moral values. The modernists accuse the traditionalists of being too right-wing and out-of-touch to ever be elected, claiming that their core electoral support has long since died out; the traditionalists accuse the modernists of being unprincipled, morally dubious and of attempting to mimic Labour. It’s been this way for years. Thatcher kept a lid on it through force, Major tried through consensus and common-sense, but the cracks were too wide by the time Hague came in. Duncan Smith has inherited two parties that don’t like each other but need each other to retain their joint position as HM Opposition. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2002, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606/4 "2002-11-06T22:40:43Z")
Up late one night on C-SPAN they were showing the House of Commons standing around insulting Tony Blair for a few hours. I was awed by the way everyone would grunt loudly in agreement with everyone else. I wish US congresspeople grunted more. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606/5 "2002-11-07T00:43:12Z")
**Crusoe** Politically-naive doper checking in -\> Why don’t they split into two parties? I mean officially or something. ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606/6 "2002-11-07T02:58:27Z")
Out of curiosity, does the US Congress have a similar session to Question Time, where the opposition gets a chance to shit all over the PM? ( I love watching Question Time!) ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606/7 "2002-11-07T03:02:19Z")
He’s already answered that: > [@](#): > > …but need each other to retain their joint position as HM Opposition. Neither side can guarantee being big enough to survive in that role by itself. Added to which it would be like the worst ever band split-up with both sides claiming rights to the name etc. My guess is that the problem will resolve itself as the traditionalists die off. The average age of Tory Party members is 65 and rising. BTW, there’s no chance of Thatcher dying of natural causes - that job’s going to need a wooden stake. ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606/8 "2002-11-07T03:04:29Z")
Out of curiosity, does the US Congress have a similar session to Question Time, where the opposition gets a chance to shit all over the PM? ( I love watching Question Time!) ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606/9 "2002-11-07T05:03:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Narrad \* > \*\*Out of curiosity, does the US Congress have a similar session to Question Time, where the opposition gets a chance to shit all over the PM? ( I love watching Question Time!) \*\* Nope, damn it! Best thing I heard from the British Parliament was back when Maggie was PM. There was debate about compensating folks who’d been wrongly imprisoned for a number of years, and Maggie was opposed to it. One MP was saying, “If Margaret Thatcher had spent ten years in prison–” At which point he was interrupted by another member shouting, “As well she should!” This was greeted by thunderous applause and laughter. Damn, the Brits are a lucky bunch. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606/10 "2002-11-07T08:37:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lobsang \* > \*\ ***Crusoe** Politically-naive doper checking in -\> Why don’t they split into two parties? I mean officially or something. \*\* Yep, as **everton** says, they need each other. What were the Liberal Democrats able to achieve when they were the third party? If you don’t have the weight of numbers in our wonderful first-past-the-post system to really disrupt the government’s position you might as well just stamp your feet and threaten to hold your breath. If you can’t muster a substantial number of MPs voting your way, any legislation the government wants the government will get. The Tories know this. Any split would push the Liberal Democrats into second place (maybe not by much, since I could see the modernist Tories coming up with some appealing soundbites) and the Tories would become a laughing stock. No power, just bluster. It’s probably clear that I’m no fan of the Conservative Party. I’m certainly no fan of the traditionalist wing, and I agree with many of the criticisms levelled by the modernist Tories. However, I’m also not exactly mad keen on Labour at the moment, and this country really could use some effective, rigourous opposition! ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606/11 "2002-11-07T10:45:51Z")
Well, if the Tories self-destruct - which is not impossible - then the Lib-Dems will, of necessity, step up to the plate as party of opposition. That will make things pretty much the way they were when I was a lad. We’d have one right-wing party (Labour), one left-wing party (Liberal Democrats), and one irrelevant historical appendage (Conservative). My plan is to join the Conservative party and support Boris Johnson in a leadership bid. That should finish them off fairly effectively. Personally, I’m impressed with the way current politicians are keeping faith with their predecessors. Tony Blair is diligently maintaining the legacy of John Major, and Ian Duncan Smith maintaining that of William Hague. Touching, really. ---
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606/12 "2002-11-07T11:12:32Z")
I think Maggie’s best was invoking the _second derivative_ in parliament, arguing that the irate of increase\* in unemployment was decreasing. Steve: Have you seen the Boris Johnson/Beano cartoon in Private Eye? Once you’ve seen it, it’s impossible to take the man seriously (as if you ever did)… ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Doris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@Sir\_Doris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Doris)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606/13 "2002-11-07T11:15:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Steve Wright \* > \*\*My plan is to join the Conservative party and support Boris Johnson in a leadership bid. That should finish them off fairly effectively. > \*\* Hmm … **Cringe factor:** High. Media whore, butt of many jokes. **Potential for sexual misdemeanours:** Does not compute, but then I’d have said the same about John Major. **Intellect:** Allegedly Boris hides the mind of a genius behind the image of a buffoon. If so, he’s doing a good job of it. **Image:** Old English Sheep dog Yes, that should consign them to oblivion. However, I mustn’t delude myself that I understand the motivations of Middle England, given that some would still welcome the return of Thatcher, or think that Anne Widdecombe would make a good leader. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Everton \* > **BTW, there’s no chance of Thatcher dying of natural causes - that job’s going to need a wooden stake** Nothing to add really, except that I’m enjoying the image and mentally joining to queue to dance on her grave ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606/14 "2002-11-07T11:21:05Z")
The sad thing is, the Boris Johnson cartoon in _Private Eye_ is actually _more_ believable than the real thing… Incidentally: another thing you Americans need in your debating chamber is a mace. We have a mace - it’s supposed to represent the Queen’s power or something. It’s strictly ceremonial… most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606/15 "2002-11-07T11:31:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sir Doris \* > \*\* > **Potential for sexual misdemeanours:** Does not compute, but then I’d have said the same about John Major. > \*\* Actually, I think his name’s already linked in rumour with a fellow journalist (Petronella Wyatt, possibly. That is, it’s possible the _rumours_ are about Johnson and Petronella Wyatt - whether there’s any substance to such rumours, I don’t know… not that sure I want to know, either.) ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606/16 "2002-11-07T11:45:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Steve Wright \* > \*\*Incidentally: another thing you Americans need in your debating chamber is a mace. We have a mace - it’s supposed to represent the Queen’s power or something. It’s strictly ceremonial… most of the time. \*\* Didn’t someone attack the mace once and break it? Dennis Skinner or somebody like that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Clawman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47c2d/32.png) [@The\_Clawman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Clawman)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606/17 "2002-11-07T12:05:10Z")
Michael Heseltine once grabbed it and brandished it at the Labour benches who were singing the “Red Flag”. What larks! [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk\_news/politics/m-o/82544.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/m-o/82544.stm) ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606/18 "2002-11-07T12:10:30Z")
[Michael Heseltine did it](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/a-z_of_parliament/m-o/82544.stm). Ron Brown did it too: > [@](#): > > Along with George Galloway, Ron Brown was one of the Scottish Labour Party’s most colourful MPs. Brown was a supporter of the Russian invasion of Afghanistan and in 1987, Mr Brown emulated Michael Heseltine when he swung the Mace of the House of Commons about his head. Mr Brown was a somewhat less adept Mace-wielder than Mr Heseltine and he caused significant damage to one of Parliament’s most symbolic relics (i.e. the mace, not Margaret Thatcher). Ron Brown was suspended from the House after the incident. Following allegations concerning one of his assistants, Mr Brown was accused of breaking into and stealing from his mistress’s house in 1989. Mr Brown’s parliamentary and extra-parliamentary exploits led to him being deselected in 1990 and Labour’s candidate in 1992 was school teacher, Malcolm Chisolm. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Clawman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47c2d/32.png) [@The\_Clawman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Clawman)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606/19 "2002-11-07T12:14:52Z")
God, they don’t make them like Ron Brown any more. I seem to remember that it was ladies underwear that he nicked from his mistress’s place. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606/20 "2002-11-07T12:16:34Z")
Aye. Julian Barnes wrote a very funny column about it for a US newspaper. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-is-parliament-always-this-much-fun-mr-duncan-smith-vs-his-own-party/135606.md?page=2)