# UK dopers (or anyone else) - do you find the Union Jack inoffensive? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 30, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307 "2004-12-30T20:25:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/21 "2004-12-30T23:17:03Z")
I have a sneaking suspicion that for many of my fellow Americans the sight of the British flag reminds them most of Reebok brand athletic shoes. Or, as my younger sister said after seeing the first **Austin Powers** movie, “I didn’t get why his car was decorated like a shoebox.” Once or twice when I was in high school people asked me why I had stuff decorated with the Confederate battle flag when in fact it was the British flag (from my collection of Who memorabilia). So I suppose that a few of the people offended by the Confederate flag might mistakenly be upset by the Union Jack as well! In Japanese bargain shops I have often seen various goods for sale patterned with either the American flag or the British flag. Gift boxes, pencil boxes, notebooks, sunglass cases, even folding paper fans. The design of the Japanese flag is almost never used in this way. Most of the Japanese people I know seem to associate display of the Japanese flag with wacko nationalism. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/22 "2004-12-30T23:22:26Z")
> [@Celyn](#): > > Oh, I think there are places you might find some people very pleased about it, but then again, they might happen to be people with dodgy views, Or they might not. What are you trying to say? In what way dodgy? ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/23 "2004-12-30T23:29:19Z")
Lamia, I’m older than your sister, so I associate the Union Flag with mini skirts and white vinyl boots. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/24 "2004-12-30T23:38:44Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Once or twice when I was in high school people asked me why I had stuff decorated with the Confederate battle flag when in fact it was the British flag (from my collection of Who memorabilia). So I suppose that a few of the people offended by the Confederate flag might mistakenly be upset by the Union Jack as well! Seirously? That frightens me. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/25 "2004-12-30T23:58:06Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > Or they might not. What are you trying to say? In what way dodgy? Oops, I meant the views that are suggested in the OP - ie that that Union flag is not infrequently appropriated by far-right racist groups - e.g. National Front, British National Party. Not that those organisation are exactly large - but, well, for them to disappear to nothingness would suit me and most people, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Ms\_Boods](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@Ms\_Boods](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms_Boods)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/26 "2004-12-31T01:42:09Z")
[I love the Hawaiian state flag](http://members.aol.com/lvhalau/HawFlagColorSmall.jpg) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bernard\_Marx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@Bernard\_Marx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bernard_Marx)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/27 "2004-12-31T02:27:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by \* **jjimm** > [Obligatory SDMB nitpick] It’s not the Union Jack unless it’s a ship’s ensign. It’s the Union Flag in any other context. [/OSDMBN] Well actually, the ensign would be the [White Ensign](http://flagspot.net/flags/gb-ensig.html) and would fly from the ensign staff ( at the blunt end). The Union Jack would fly from the jackstaff at the pointy end. Of all the pleasures in life, I like nitpicking the best! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/28 "2004-12-31T02:34:08Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Seirously? That frightens me. Seriously. This did happen in the North, so there were people who hadn’t seen the Confederate battle flag as often as a Southerner would have. And I was a transplanted Southerner myself, so I suppose they may have thought I wanted to display the Rebel flag out of some misguided sense of regional pride. But still, it was the freaking British flag! There aren’t even any stars on it! ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/29 "2004-12-31T03:47:25Z")
The only people I know who fly the Union Flag also paint their paving stones and lamposts red, white and blue and had graffitti like “Taigs out”, “no surrender” and “no Pope here” on their walls. To me, it doesn’t say “British Colonialism” so much as “Ulster Loyalist nut cases”. (But then those boys fly the French flag too as a sort of a reverse Irish tri-colour in the British colours. The mind boggles.) So while I don’t find the flag _itself_ offensive, the context with which I most associate it is something that means I view it in a less than friendly light. I certainly would avoid buying any clothing that had it as a logo…even a tiny one as part of the brand name. But that’s me, having grown up in Northern Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/30 "2004-12-31T04:10:44Z")
When I lived in England (or “UK”, as expats here like to say for some reason - yes, no “the”…don’t know why - convenient shorthand, I suppose), I actually had a garage built - even though I didn’t have a car - just so that I could fly my Union Jack (Union Flag, whatever - who cares?). Out here in Hong Kong, I didn’t bother with a flag while Patten was in charge, but bought one when the Commies took over. Not having a garage, I was once again stuck for a place to hang it (or should that be fly it? sounds a bit grander, I think). When I go to the horse racing (pretty big over here), I drape it over the rail near the finishing post. Even had some stitching done across the centre with the words “Virginia Water” emblazoned across it in big white letters, just so everyone watching on the telly knows where I come from. There’s a meeting tomorrow, as it happens. So watch out for me if you’re in one of those clubs that has a sweep on the races of a Thursday evening. ---
**Author:** ![LilyoftheValley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/54ee81/32.png) [@LilyoftheValley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilyoftheValley)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/31 "2004-12-31T04:30:10Z")
American here – not flying any US or UK flags, but I do have an EU flag on my house. Wonder how that would go over round those parts? No one seems to know what our flag is (I’m quite sure most think it’s a “pretty circle of stars”), except for one 12-year-old boy. I used to work with a guy who had a Mini Cooper painted with the British flag on the roof. Is that a purely American affectation, or would anyone actually drive one of those in Britain? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/32 "2004-12-31T10:27:51Z")
> [@LilyoftheValley](#): > > I used to work with a guy who had a Mini Cooper painted with the British flag on the roof. Is that a purely American affectation, or would anyone actually drive one of those in Britain? I’ve seen a couple of them. But I think that’s an attempt at post-Austin Powers irony. ---
**Author:** ![Ross](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@Ross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ross)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/33 "2004-12-31T12:43:45Z")
I always preferred this version of the Scottish flag, thinking it a symbol of national passion… [Lion Rampant](http://www.geographic.org/flags/royal_lion_rampant_flags.html) … until I discovered that it is in fact the Royal Standard and should only be flown when the monarch of Scotland is present. The monarch being Queen Elizabeth “the second”… if I flew any flag I’d fly that, if my street wasn’t occupied by the Clan Nitpick. Anyway I’m a Christian so I can just say I’m making some kind of obscure overextended reference to the true Lordship of Christ or something, it doesn’t sound very convincing but it stops me getting slashed. Most Scots I know see the Lion Rampant as pretty cool, 'cos, y’know, it is. Personally I am rather taken with my "If It’s Not _Scottish_ It’s _Crap"_ mug, and I’m trying to get its design accepted by the new Scottish Parliament. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/34 "2004-12-31T12:51:23Z")
we are not great flag flyers in britain - if you see a lot of flags out - it means we’re celebrating something. I really can’t ever recall seeing a union Flag flying over a private dwelling - it would look a bit odd to say the least. Also in Britain most public buildings (police stations, libraries, town halls etc) don’t fly flags. They wil however break a Union Flag out to flay at half mast to represent mourning. In common with most of my mates, the only time I’ve ever flown/displayed a flag it was the St George’s Cross and was for the period between England entering a football contest and getting knocked out on penalties. I have also waved it a test matches etc. The equivelent applies to my sweaty and paddie pals - dfifferent flag of course. There are a few rather tiresome types who will try to be offended by it - but frankly those people live to be offended, and are comletely implacable, even if we replaced the Union Flag, Saltire, Dragon Flag etc with the Hammer and Sickle they still would find SOMETHING to be upset about. It’s also a geat bit of branding! ---
**Author:** ![Ross](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@Ross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ross)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/35 "2004-12-31T16:18:56Z")
If I saw a police station flying a union jack, I’d assume there was some kind of major problem. I’d even have thought “invasion!” if the world stage hadn’t changed so much. There’s a Scottish saltire flown on the flagpole in Glasgow’s Botanical Gardens nowadays. Can’t say I’d ever noticed one there before the renovations. The fact that I have to explain what it is to my daughter indicates the relative scarcity of flags around here. It’s near the headquarters of BBC Scotland too, so that may have something to do with it, or not. > [@](#): > > … even if we replaced the Union Flag, Saltire, Dragon Flag etc with the Hammer and Sickle they still would find SOMETHING to be upset about. Like the fact that it’s MUCH harder to paint on your face. There is of course a tradition of cuteness about the Union Jack, has been since the sixties, and unlike the dress in the Confederate Flag thread, it doesn’t carry any overtones of the flag’s darker side. As soon as you put the union jack on a Mini Cooper, it becomes harmless. That whole mini-cooper thing was really all about post-empire fun times, but, tellingly, like Tony Blair’s bizarre notions of Britain as a “young country”, it did not last. The most recent attempt to revive it was with the dreadful phrase [“Cool Brittania”](http://www.worldwidewords.org/turnsofphrase/tp-coo1.htm), which someone revived mid-90s because we’d made a couple of half-decent films and someone had opened a nightclub. (the thing is, you see, Britain isn’t cool, it’s sort of pleasantly world weary and confused. Even in the 60s the only cool bits were about eight streets in central London, everywhere else was still rubbish) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/36 "2004-12-31T17:07:52Z")
> [@](#): > > I was more than a little surprised to see how many Americans found the confederate flag offensive. As a UK chap not entirely up on things American, it only ever made me think “Dukes of Hazzard” - maybe with added vague undertones of “don’t the klan come from there or something”? However it seems clear that many Americans find the flag positively repugnant. I can’t see how flying a British flag in Britain would be offensive. Nor do I see how flying an American flag in the United States is offensive. The controversial nature of the Confederate flag comes from the fact that American citizens are choosing to display the flag of a foreign country (and one which was at war with the United States throughout virtually its existence). I guess the British equivalent might be wearing a t-shirt with Oliver Cromwell’s picture on it to a reception with the Royal family. ---
**Author:** ![Ross](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@Ross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ross)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/37 "2004-12-31T18:43:14Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > I can’t see how flying a British flag in Britain would be offensive. It may be that you are unfamiliar with many things with which the flag has become associated. Can you see, though, how wearing a Union Jack t-shirt might begin to seem offensive if one also had a shaved head and bovver boots? Or can you see how an Irish Catholic might be offended by the flag? Or a pro-devolution Scot? ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/38 "2004-12-31T19:02:04Z")
Allow me to continue the nitpickery over “Union Jack” vs. “Union Flag”, because it’s not certain that the “Jack” comes from the word for a flag flown from a ship: > [@](#): > > [the term’s] origin is uncertain. It may come from the ‘jack-et’ of the English or Scottish soldiers; or from the name of James I who originated the first union in 1603, in either its Latin or French form Jacobus or Jacques; or, as ‘jack’ once meant small, the name may be derived from a royal proclamation issued by Charles II that the Union Flag should be flown only by ships of the Royal Navy as a jack, a small flag at the bowsprit. [http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page398.asp](http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page398.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/39 "2004-12-31T19:35:53Z")
> [@Ross](#): > > Or can you see how an Irish Catholic might be offended by the flag? Or a pro-devolution Scot? No, I can’t see it. Disagree with it, perhaps. But not offended. I suppose it depends on the context. And being pro-devolutional doesn’t make you anti-Union Jack or anti-UK. You probably meant “pro-independence”. The only time I’ve been offended by the Union Jack (as opposed to those who may be bearing it) was during the long, long years when the English couldn’t get it into to their thick heads (present company excepted, of course :)) that it wasn’t England’s flag. Fortunately they’ve finally got the message. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/40 "2005-01-01T14:01:19Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > The controversial nature of the Confederate flag comes from the fact that American citizens are choosing to display the flag of a foreign country (and one which was at war with the United States throughout virtually its existence). … and one whose primary _raison d’être_ was the perpetuation of the institution of slavery. That’s not a minor detail. As to the OP, how I feel about the Union Jack depends entirely upon where I am when I see it. When I’m in England, it seems normal. When I’m in Scotland, I find it a bit sad. When I’m in Northern Ireland, it puts the fear of God into me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307.md?page=3)