# UK dopers (or anyone else) - do you find the Union Jack inoffensive? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 30, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307 "2004-12-30T20:25:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/41 "2005-01-01T14:26:40Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > When I’m in Northern Ireland, it puts the fear of God into me. You’ve never said a truer word. Seeing as that is pretty much the only context I see it in, lies the root of my attitude to it. Nice flag, shame about the people who choose to fly it (by which I mean scary Loyalists, bovver boys etc, not the people waving it at church fairs in the home counties). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/42 "2005-01-01T16:49:33Z")
> [@](#): > > It may be that you are unfamiliar with many things with which the flag has become associated. Can you see, though, how wearing a Union Jack t-shirt might begin to seem offensive if one also had a shaved head and bovver boots? > > Or can you see how an Irish Catholic might be offended by the flag? Or a pro-devolution Scot? I’d like to think that at least some of the Britons displaying their flag are doing so from a love of their own country rather than an animosity towards others. But I’m no expert on social nuances in the UK, so I’ll take your word for it. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/43 "2005-01-01T23:27:48Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > The only thing I dislike about it is its incorporation into so many of its former colonies’ own flags, like Australia’s. \*That \*is offensive. To the eye only though. Some Australians find this offensive. It doesn’t particularly worry me. But I’m not really a flag person. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/44 "2005-01-02T00:59:38Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > When I’m in Northern Ireland, it puts the fear of God into me. In Northern Ireland the Remembrance Day poppy can be used to that effect :rolleyes: Going up to my girlfriend’s place or coming into Belfast in the bus there are all the murals that let us know that the same sort of people who went over the top in WWI are the same people shooting dead catholics in the 1970s and 80s :smack: So while I find it inoffensive and look on it as part of my country of origin the same way I see a government in Westminister and the NHS as part of that country, it can be twisted. As any symbol can be, what if the same question had been asked of the Swastika in the 1930s? ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/45 "2005-01-02T01:01:26Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > But I’m no expert on social nuances in the UK, so I’ll take your word for it. No, but I would have thought you read newspapers or watched the BBC news once in a while… :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Shrinking\_Violet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Shrinking\_Violet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shrinking_Violet)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/46 "2005-01-02T01:50:08Z")
> [@Ms Boods](#): > > [I love the Hawaiian state flag](http://members.aol.com/lvhalau/HawFlagColorSmall.jpg) > > 🙂 OK, there’s ignorance to be fought here because I can’t think why in the world the Hawaiian State Flag incorporates the Union Flag? 😕 > [@GorillaMan](#): > > > [@LilyoftheValley](#): > > > > I used to work with a guy who had a Mini Cooper painted with the British flag on the roof. Is that a purely American affectation, or would anyone actually drive one of those in Britain? > > I’ve seen a couple of them. But I think that’s an attempt at post-Austin Powers irony. It was quite a fad in the seventies, maybe the sixties too (I can’t remember) … did you never see Wendy Craig’s Mini in “Butterflies”? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/47 "2005-01-02T04:15:19Z")
> [@](#): > > No, but I would have thought you read newspapers or watched the BBC news once in a while… I do, but I’d be kidding myself if I pretended this made me an expert. Especially on something as elusive as the social connotations of various symbols and icons. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/48 "2005-01-02T05:19:54Z")
> [@Shrinking Violet](#): > > OK, there’s ignorance to be fought here because I can’t think why in the world the Hawaiian State Flag incorporates the Union Flag? 😕 Hawaii was briefly a British protectorate (known as the Sandwich Islands, after John Montagu, the [Fourth Earl of Sandwich\*](http://www.hawaiischoolreports.com/symbols/origins.htm), who as First Lord of the Admiralty supported Captain Cook’s voyages of discovery) before becoming, in turn, a kingdom, U.S. protectorate, U.S. territory, and state. As [this page](http://www.netstate.com/states/symb/flags/hi_flag.htm) states, the Union Flag also happens to represent a stylized puela (triangular standard laid across two crossed spears), which is the symbol of an _ali’i_ (Hawaiian chief). Nations whose flags feature the Union Jack design include [Australia,](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/au.html) [Fiji,](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/fj.html) [New Zealand,](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/nz.html) and [Tuvalu.](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/tv.html) See also the [provincial flags](http://www.imagesoft.net/canada/can-symb.html) of British Columbia, Manitoba, and Ontario (as well as the St. George’s Cross on the Albertan flag and Nova Scotia’s incorporation of the Rampant Lion and St. Andrew’s Cross of Scotland). - yes, the same guy who lent his name to that food item featuring bread and various combinations of fillings ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/49 "2005-01-02T05:30:03Z")
> [@Sternvogel](#): > > See also the [provincial flags](http://www.imagesoft.net/canada/can-symb.html) of British Columbia, Manitoba, and Ontario (as well as the St. George’s Cross on the Albertan flag and Nova Scotia’s incorporation of the Rampant Lion and St. Andrew’s Cross of Scotland). The flags of [all six Australian states](http://www.ausflag.com.au/flags/state.html) also include the Union Jack. ---
**Author:** ![Insomniactress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/91b2a8/32.png) [@Insomniactress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Insomniactress)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/50 "2005-01-02T05:30:06Z")
The flag reminds me of the knickers I’m wearing now, actually. Like you really need to know that, right? Ok, now I’m going to kick myself in the arse for sharing that little bit of trivia. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/51 "2005-01-02T08:00:16Z")
> [@Insomniactress](#): > > The flag reminds me of the knickers I’m wearing now, actually. Geri Halliwell? Is that you? ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/52 "2005-01-02T12:45:19Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > I do, but I’d be kidding myself if I pretended this made me an expert. Especially on something as elusive as the social connotations of various symbols and icons. The same people who like to block the roads with bonfires at certain times of the year and shoot the odd person also like us to know that they are very British and thoroughly attached to the Union Jack. Rather disgustingly, they also try and concoct some sort of link between the Protestants from Northern Ireland who fought in the first world war in the British army and modern day loyalist terrorists. This way, the Remberance Day poppy adorns murals on council houses alongside murderers :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Shrinking\_Violet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Shrinking\_Violet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shrinking_Violet)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/53 "2005-01-02T14:28:00Z")
> [@Sternvogel](#): > > Hawaii was briefly a British protectorate … Many thanks **Sternvogel** - ignorance fought. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![QuizCustodet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ba0ec/32.png) [@QuizCustodet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuizCustodet)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/54 "2005-01-02T20:26:58Z")
I’m not a native born Brit, but I’ve lived here since 1996 (near Cambridge first, then in Oxford.) I have a very positive view of the Union Flag, mostly because I’ve almost universally seen it in the context of the British military, and I have a lot of respect for the military that’s rubbed off on the flag. It must be said that the only places I can recall seeing the flag flying are military posts and government buildings - I don’t think I would fly it personally, because it just isn’t done. Rather than being seen as a sign of support for the country or whatever, it would at best draw puzzled reactions, and at worse some of the negative reactions seen in this thread. I am startled to hear that some people associate the Union Jack with right wing types on the mainland - the only negative associations I’ve picked up are with the extreme Unionist fringes in N. Ireland. If anything, I associate the far right groups with the much more frequently seen cross of St. George. ---
**Author:** ![Ross](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@Ross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ross)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2005, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/55 "2005-01-02T22:33:46Z")
I know the skinheads used to chant “there ain’t no black in the union jack”… something which could have been solved [this way](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2981038.stm), which I sort of liked, actually, but most people seemed to think it was daft/tokenistic/would mean that the terrorists had already won. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/56 "2005-01-03T00:03:04Z")
> [@QuizCustodet](#): > > I am startled to hear that some people associate the Union Jack with right wing types on the mainland - the only negative associations I’ve picked up are with the extreme Unionist fringes in N. Ireland. If anything, I associate the far right groups with the much more frequently seen cross of St. George. The BNP has made much use of the Union Flag - including basing its logo on it. I’m surprised you _haven’t_ noticed the various (mis)uses of the flag by such groups. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/57 "2005-01-03T18:38:01Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > The BNP has made much use of the Union Flag - including basing its logo on it. They are hardly alone on this. All sorts of organisations, political and otherwise, include a suggestion of the Union Flag in their logo. The fact that the BNP continually attempt to hijack the flag for their own purposes shouldn’t be a reason to give up on it. Quite the reverse. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307/58 "2005-01-03T18:57:46Z")
> [@Ross](#): > > I always preferred this version of the Scottish flag, thinking it a symbol of national passion… > > [Lion Rampant](http://www.geographic.org/flags/royal_lion_rampant_flags.html) > > … until I discovered that it is in fact the Royal Standard and should only be flown when the monarch of Scotland is present. The monarch being Queen Elizabeth “the second”… if I flew any flag I’d fly that, if my street wasn’t occupied by the Clan Nitpick. You could try flying the [Flag of Nova Scotia]([http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag](http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag) of Nova Scotia) for your saltire-lion-and-tressure fix. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-or-anyone-else-do-you-find-the-union-jack-inoffensive/282307.md?page=2)