# UK Dopers - why the caravan hate? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 26, 2005, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-why-the-caravan-hate/332762 "2005-11-26T02:19:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-why-the-caravan-hate/332762/41 "2005-11-27T05:32:36Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Thanks for the link, but I am left still ignorant. > > What is a Pikey? We have Gyspies here as well as the UK does–I have only ever seen them in Kentucky, but I’m sure they are elsewhere. > > Is Gypsy a raist term as well? I thought it described itinerant people of Romanian heritage. > > Is Pikey akin to white trash? (which I still don’t see as racist, but I am willing to go with the flow here). > Are caravan folk the same as squatters in UK? From the [Urban Dictionary](http://www.urbandictionary.com/): [pikey](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pikey&r=d). The word Gypsy came from an erroneous assumption that the people so identified originated in Egypt. (An error since they originally migrated from the Indian sub-continent.) Because it is generally pejorative as well as inaccurate, the people so described have begun standing up and insisting that they be recognized under their own names of the Roma or the Sinti. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-why-the-caravan-hate/332762/42 "2005-11-27T10:32:21Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > What is a Pikey? We have Gyspies here as well as the UK does–I have only ever seen them in Kentucky, but I’m sure they are elsewhere. > > Is Gypsy a raist term as well? I thought it described itinerant people of Romanian heritage. > > Is Pikey akin to white trash? (which I still don’t see as racist, but I am willing to go with the flow here). > Are caravan folk the same as squatters in UK? > [@Mehitabel](#): > > Are they homeless poor people, or willing hoboes? I guess you have the right to be a hobo if you want but it seems unfair to drag your children around with you. And if they’re not gypsies, where are they from exactly? Gypsies and travellers are a terminological nightmare 😉 _Gypsy_ can be used either to mean Roma, or to mean all travellers. In legal contexts, it means the latter. It also does get used in a derogatory manner, and _gyppo_ and the like are racist terms. _All travellers_ in the previous paragraph includes Irish travellers, ‘new age travellers’ (people who can’t accept they weren’t alive in the 60s 😉 , and anyone else who lives such a lifestyle. There’s a good summary of some of the situations, and some of the myths, [here](http://www.cre.gov.uk/gdpract/g_and_t_facts.html). However glad we might be that signs proclaiming “no blacks, no dogs, no Irish” are a thing of the past, it’s still not hard to find pubs permitting “no travellers”, despite such signs being illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-why-the-caravan-hate/332762/43 "2005-11-27T11:14:44Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > You could fill an entire forum with tales of bad drivers. It’s just that I don’t recall a lot of US TV shows where they rejoice in blowing up trailers. US TV shows associate trailers with old folks and rednecks. These are not groups there is a lot of animus to blow up. Now, [boom cars](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_294.html), OTOH… > [@](#): > > On the two UK shows (Brainiac and Top Gear), it seems to be quite the crown pleaser. By appointment of HM The Queen… **BLAM** ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-why-the-caravan-hate/332762/44 "2005-11-27T12:00:38Z")
Classy response **PeterWiggen** , classy modding **Veb**. See, I’ve been here long enough to remember **Kal** saying that word was the Traveller/Rroma version of the n-word. **Kal** is a lovely part-Roma former doper who is now too busy with his two kids and lovely wife to post here. I know Travellers can be difficult people to have as neighbours, but their entire lifestyle and culture was perfectly viable when horses were the main form of transport, people needed pots mending and an annual fair was the only entertainment in the village. Think of them as like any other ethnic group in which their own traditions being made redundant in a modern world (parallels with Australian aborgines and native Americans have been drawn). Irish Travellers are a separate ethnic group from other Irish people, with their own language and culture and are considered as a protected class in Irish discrimination law. Roma are a separate group again from Irish Travellers, with their own origins, culture and traditions. My sister’s boyfriend’s father is from a travelling background. His father’s people worked carnivals and fairs, and he is a very unsettling person to go to a funfair with as he will point out the single bolt holding the whole thing together, or tell you horror stories of how rides are held together with old belts and chewing gum. I think I’m just a bit sensitive on this topic. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-why-the-caravan-hate/332762/45 "2005-11-27T12:55:20Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Top Gear certainly isn’t the origin of caravan-hatred. > Reasons we all hate them: > > - They clog up the roads, particularly on some of the busiest days of the year in the summer, and some of the busiest roads. > > - When on a two-lane road, they hold up traffic because they’re so slow and unweildly. And for no good reason, unlike slow farm vehicles, lorries etc. (a) mostly pull over periodically to let cars past, and (b) have a purpose. > > - Too many caravan owners don’t know how to drive properly while towing them. Changing lanes too fast so the thing swerves about, either unnecessary caution or not taking the load into consideration when braking, etc. > > - Last but certainly not least: the type of people who enjoy caravan holidays are indescribably boring. (Well, that’s the stereotype 😉 ) Not a patch on cyclists fitted out with ridiculous outfits and superiority complexes riding in convoys and getting more pleasure from pissing off motorists than taking exercise. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-why-the-caravan-hate/332762/46 "2005-11-27T15:43:36Z")
It all sounds much more classist to me than racist. That urban dictionary (which seems to be made of up entries from all kinds of people-it’s not really a “source” like OED, is it?) seems to emphasize economic habits and “lifestyles” over race or physical features. For example, one of the definers describes a Pikey as one who wears Adidas sports wear–I think if I root around in the ole closet, I might find something with the Adidas logo on it. It seems silly to try to categorize a subset of society by apparel and/or taste in jewelry. That said, from where I sit it appears that the possible increase in petty crime, the litter and the suspicions aroused when a group of these folk come to town is what really sets them apart and opens them up to ostracizing. Sounds like a problem I’m glad we don’t have (or I am not aware of–there are no travellers of any kind coming to town over here–we do get an occasional summer carnival which I do not go to for the very reasons **irishgirl** mentions). As for “old people and rednecks” being associated with trailers over here…I for one would LOVE to see an RV blown up on TV. I wasn’t aware that I had this urge until I read this thread–but I get really annoyed by them-and the whole mindset that goes with them, so bring on the TNT. Let’s do some mobile homes while we’re at it. Why wait for the tornado? Do it now! (I am not really kidding here–I would like to see an RV and a mobile home blown up–empty, I hasten to add). Og knows there is enough stupid stuff onTV as it is–this would be a step up! ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-why-the-caravan-hate/332762/47 "2005-11-27T15:47:14Z")
It’s a term which started out as a very specific perjorative term for Travellers. It’s used that way, for example in the movie _Snatch_ - it has come to mean the same as trailer trash, but it didn’t always mean that, and it doesn’t ONLY mean that. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-why-the-caravan-hate/332762/48 "2005-11-27T15:57:28Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > It all sounds much more classist to me than racist. That urban dictionary (which seems to be made of up entries from all kinds of people-it’s not really a “source” like OED, is it?) seems to emphasize economic habits and “lifestyles” over race or physical features. For example, one of the definers describes a Pikey as one who wears Adidas sports wear–I think if I root around in the ole closet, I might find something with the Adidas logo on it. > It seems silly to try to categorize a subset of society by apparel and/or taste in jewelry. In general, that Wikipedia article is shoddy and uninformative. Gypsies and Irish Travellers are very definitely distinct ethnic groups. > [@](#): > > That said, from where I sit it appears that the possible increase in petty crime, the litter and the suspicions aroused when a group of these folk come to town is what really sets them apart and opens them up to ostracizing. Hmmmm…blame them for other people’s prejudices? While there are unquestionably going to be incidents involving any Gypsy group, any ‘controversy’ is always accompanied by astonishing racism and bigotry from ‘concerned local people’ who wouldn’t dream of generalising about any other group. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-why-the-caravan-hate/332762/49 "2005-11-27T16:38:23Z")
Blame whom for whose prejudices? You lost me. Summary: people say bad things about itinerant folk-maybe because their way of life is so different than conventions. Sometimes bad things happen when itinerant folk are around. Some of these bad things are blamed on these people. People then fiind it convenient (for myriad reasons) to pre-judge these itinerant folks and LOOK for ways to place blame on these folks. This leads to a vicious cycle and layering of suspicion and prejudice. But these itinerant folk are of several types (if I am following you)–there are some that are drifters, some that are Roma, some that are Irish and some that are ? But they all get lumped together in the prejudice. Is that about right? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-why-the-caravan-hate/332762/50 "2005-11-27T16:43:09Z")
That’s more or less right…but you need to add in the slanderous fictions and myths that people are happy to spread, of the ‘daughter-of-a-friend-of-the-guy-down-the-road being attacked’ type. Again, far too many people are willing to believe these when it involves travellers, far more so than with any other group. And local media are also happy to perpetuate the climate of fear. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-why-the-caravan-hate/332762/51 "2005-11-27T16:54:47Z")
Ah. Now I get it. We have something of that sort over here-but it doesn’t involve campers/caravans/trailers or mobile homes. Isn’t it odd how certain things can be perpetuated via media? Sorry, tangent. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-why-the-caravan-hate/332762/52 "2005-11-27T17:01:15Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > It all sounds much more classist to me than racist. … Actually I don’t know that car-drivers saying how much they hate caravans have to be being either classist or racist. I took the OP to refer primarily to the caravans towed behind a car by families who are going on holiday(vacation) and are using a carava because it’s more comfortable than a tent, but cheaper than a hotel. The thing is, of course, they have to travel quite slowly, they can be a pain and often a danger in narrow country roads, and the drivers are often not usede to the extra complications of towing these things behind them. N.B. I am not saying that there is NO racisim or classism involved ever, merely that if you hear someone mention that they hate caravans, I really do think that those holiday caravans are most likely to be meant. So it’s not really a matter of lifestyle choice, or living in a “trailerr”. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-why-the-caravan-hate/332762/53 "2005-11-27T19:13:35Z")
> [@Celyn](#): > > Actually I don’t know that car-drivers saying how much they hate caravans have to be being either classist or racist. I agree. Still, imagine what the fallout would be like if **Top Gear** was produced in the United States, and heavily modified ricemobiles were routinely destroyed. Most ricers I’ve seen on the streets are driven obnoxiously – they love tailgating, chaning lanes quickly without signaling, challenging drivers to races and so on – and most that drive them are young and inexperienced. Some [some will probably consider it a racist act.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=33609&highlight=ricers). ---
**Author:** ![mischievous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mischievous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mischievous)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-why-the-caravan-hate/332762/54 "2005-11-27T22:38:14Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Is Gypsy a raist term as well? I thought it described itinerant people of Romanian heritage. I think you figured this out already, but I’ll belabour the point just in case: Roma (Gypsies) are of Indian heritage, whereas Romanians are Eastern European. There are Roma in Romania, but they aren’t the same people at all. mischievous ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-why-the-caravan-hate/332762/55 "2005-11-28T10:28:57Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > imagine what the fallout would be like if **Top Gear** was produced in the United States, and heavily modified ricemobiles were routinely destroyed. Most ricers I’ve seen on the streets are driven obnoxiously – they love tailgating, chaning lanes quickly without signaling, challenging drivers to races and so on – and most that drive them are young and inexperienced. Some [some will probably consider it a racist act.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=33609&highlight=ricers). I would have thought the name to be racist. Here in the UK the [Max Power](http://www.maxpower.co.uk/homepage/) brigade are a similar lot but they seem to get grief in “proper” motoring magazines for their vehicles being modified for looks and not performance. But I’ve never been aware of any classist or racist reasoning behind it. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-why-the-caravan-hate/332762/56 "2005-11-28T12:01:21Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The word Gypsy came from an erroneous assumption that the people so identified originated in Egypt. (An error since they originally migrated from the Indian sub-continent.) Because it is generally pejorative as well as inaccurate, the people so described have begun standing up and insisting that they be recognized under their own names of the Roma or the Sinti. Is it really the Gypsies who are requesting this change, or just non-Gypsies who want to be “politically correct”? I’ve met plenty of Gypsies who are perfectly happy to be called Gypsies, and indeed refer to themselves as such, often with pride. I think the situation is analogous with (North American) Indians. Non-Indians seem to be bending over backwards to use terms such as “aboriginals” and “First Nations peoples” while many Indians themselves, both individually and en masse, are perfectly happy to stick with the original “inaccurate” term. For instance, in my undergraduate years I studied at the Saskatchewan **Indian** Federated College’s Department of **Indian** Languages, Literature, and Linguistics. The staff and students were overwhelmingly Indian and had no qualms referring to themselves as such. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-why-the-caravan-hate/332762/57 "2005-11-28T15:47:09Z")
> [@mischievous](#): > > I think you figured this out already, but I’ll belabour the point just in case: Roma (Gypsies) are of Indian heritage, whereas Romanians are Eastern European. There are Roma in Romania, but they aren’t the same people at all. > > mischievous And let’s add the death blows to it, shall we? When in Roma, do as the…never mind. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![mischievous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mischievous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mischievous)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-why-the-caravan-hate/332762/58 "2005-11-28T18:16:24Z")
Alright. That’s it. Can somebody please close the damn thread? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-dopers-why-the-caravan-hate/332762.md?page=2)