# UK EU In/Out referendum-:Polling day thread. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 23, 2016, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125 "2016-06-23T08:12:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/241 "2016-06-25T22:11:02Z")
> [@robby](#): > > I worry about this, too, especially when you have disengaged, silly, low-information voters who don’t really care about the issues, but vote simply to stir up shit or for the entertainment value, especially when the alternative vote is perceived to be mundane or boring. > > So in the UK, you end up with the most popular choice for a £200 million polar research vessel as “[Boaty McBoatface](http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-36225652).” :rolleyes: > > And the exciting “Leave” choice beats out the sane, sensible, but boring choice of “Remain.” > > And in November here in the U.S., some voters will inevitably pick the “exciting” choice of Trump over the sane, sensible, but perceived-to-be boring choice of Hillary Clinton. And if we don’t get a high enough turnout of sane voters, he could actually become our next President. :eek: [Just writing about the possibility of Trump getting elected makes me physically ill.] Isn’t democracy great? Or is democracy great only when it coincides with an approved outcome? ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/242 "2016-06-25T22:26:50Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Some morons, having not fully considered the consequences earlier, now regret their “Leave” votes: [http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/25/politics/uk-referendum-regrexit/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/25/politics/uk-referendum-regrexit/index.html) And it’s mainly morons who think this is in any way significant, worth linking to, or worth headlining on a web page(that’s no offense to you but you are the umpteenth person I have witnessed bring this up today). Of course some Brexit voters will be fretting over our future. It’s a brave new world with all the unknowns that come with that. It is in no way significant or moronic; it is completely natural. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/243 "2016-06-25T22:53:14Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Isn’t democracy great? Or is democracy great only when it coincides with an approved outcome? Well, one wonders who did approve an outcome were 2 trillions worth of value in the world markets is lost and sinking the British pound was the desired outcome. (Although Trump was happy for that outcome) What it is important to me in a democracy is that indeed, people can change their minds later, and I do think that is more likely after seeing that the proponents of Leaving did make promises that they did not intend to keep (the health care point to give the EU money to heath care was indeed a ruse), and their promises that it would be better for Britain are not really happening and seeing that long range most economists do not see the uncertainty to be beneficial, I then think that the Leave position will not be strong for long. > **[Economists’ forecasts: Brexit would damage growth](https://www.ft.com/content/1a86ab36-afbe-11e5-b955-1a1d298b6250?siteedition=uk&_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F1a86ab36-afbe-11e5-b955-1a1d298b6250.html%3Fsiteedition%3Duk&_i_referer=&classification=conditional_standard&iab=barrier-app)** > > Respondents fear uncertainty caused by a vote to leave the EU ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/244 "2016-06-26T01:35:53Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > …of the popular vote you had called for? Yes. He’s Prime Minister, he rules the country, he can make these decisions. It’s not like breaking promises is anything new. > [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Once you loose the backing of roughly half your own party then it’s impossible to govern. But if he had stood up instead, making a bold but arguably correct decision not to go through with it, maybe he would’ve been supported. > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Suppose the majority had been 62% instead of 52%? (Support for leaving the EU in the Czech Republic is currently at that level). ??? And what if it had been 97%. Or 18% or 7053%. It wasn’t, it was a bare majority a best. A 60/40 split is fairly definitive, but 52/48 in other circumstances would be within a margin of error. > [@AK84](#): > > If I had been PM of the UK, I would not have called a referendum at all. Hindsight is 20/20, but he still has a chance to head this off at the pass. Not doing so while he has the chance will elicit even more regrets. > [@Velocity](#): > > Imagine if a PM held such a referendum, and the majority voted Remain, but then the PM, afterwards, said, “Sorry, I’m still withdrawing us from the EU anyway?” Withdrawing has caused a panic. Remaining would cause an upset but not a panic. The margin is so tight, I think it’s not unreasonable. The panic this has caused is unprecedented, and it could lead to disaster. Isn’t it the PMs job to fix things like this, to do what’s best for the country and not destroy it on the whim of a public poll? > [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > And immediately trigger a no-confidence vote. If he foresaw resigning, it might have been a good tactic. Nothing to lose, everything to gain. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/245 "2016-06-26T02:49:16Z")
Here’s NPR on David Cameron’s abrupt fall from power: [After Brexit Vote, A Look At British Prime Minister David Cameron's Rise And Fall : Parallels : NPR](http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2016/06/24/483348606/david-camerons-dramatic-rise-and-fall) ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/246 "2016-06-26T05:17:19Z")
Okay [here’s](https://twitter.com/StigAbell/status/746825028197548036) an interesting comment from a reader of _The Guardian_ who anticipates that Cameron’s resignation is a ploy that will lead to the Brexit not being enacted. It’s an image file, so here it is quoted in full: > [@](#): > > If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost. > > Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron. > > With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership. > > How? > > Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor. > > And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legislation to be torn up and rewritten … the list grew and grew. > > The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction. > > The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50? > > Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders? > > Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-manoeuvred and check-mated. > > If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession … broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act. > > The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice. > > When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was “never”. When Michael Gove went on and on about “informal negotiations” … why? why not the formal ones straight away? … he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take. > > All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/247 "2016-06-26T11:03:17Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > And it’s mainly morons who think this is in any way significant, worth linking to, or worth headlining on a web page(that’s no offense to you but you are the umpteenth person I have witnessed bring this up today). Knock it off. Personal insults are not permitted and this is clearly aimed at the poster instead of the group. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/248 "2016-06-26T11:25:16Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Knock it off. > > Personal insults are not permitted and this is clearly aimed at the poster instead of the group. > > [/Moderating] No offence intended to the poster. I did say _mainly_ moronic not exclusively so. This, I feel, gave me some wiggle room for plausible deniability. I did think that the poster calling certain Brexit supporters moronic called for a similar rhetorical reply. It really is only natural for some Brexit supporters to be concerned over our future. Taking control over our own destiny is both exciting and scary. Add to this the movement to over-turn the referendum result and I felt justified pointing this out in the strongest of terms. Again, my apologies to the poster who believes that only morons can find entering A Brave New World scary. You are not moronic just wrong, wrong, wrong. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/249 "2016-06-26T12:45:53Z")
Irish passport applications have apparently skyrocketed. There are millions in UK eligible for one via the Good Friday Agreement plus the grandparent rule of Irish citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/250 "2016-06-26T16:53:39Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > …Again, my apologies to the poster who believes that only morons can find entering A Brave New World scary. You are not moronic just wrong, wrong, wrong. No apology necessary. But I do believe that those who vote for a major change without fully considering the consequences _beforehand_, as apparently had several of those in the article to which I linked, are morons. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/251 "2016-06-26T17:17:56Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > No apology necessary. But I do believe that those who vote for a major change without fully considering the consequences _beforehand_, as apparently had several of those in the article to which I linked, are morons. Blame Blair. Before [1997 Scottish Parliament Referendum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_devolution_referendum,_1997) it was the practice of the UK ([for instance in 1979](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_devolution_referendum,_1979)) to first set out the terms of the separation, Independence or policy and only then vote for it (either referendum or legislative). This was their invariable policy during Independence negotiations, for instance in the erstwhile British India. Blair on the other hand (and he mentions this in his memoirs) decided in 1997 to go for a referendum _on the principle_ _f\*\*irst_ before deciding on full powers; since he felt that if he did not the policy would fail. I do think it is important that people know the terms of what is to be; or at least have a 1/2 referendum, one on the policy and another on the terms. ---
**Author:** ![mr\_wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@mr\_wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr_wolf)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/252 "2016-06-26T18:14:13Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > Okay here’s an interesting comment from a reader of _The Guardian_ who anticipates that Cameron’s resignation is a ploy that will lead to the Brexit not being enacted. Clever. I really hope that that is not the case. Hardship may be avoided but the people’s confidence in itself would sink to new lows. If Cameron really meant that he loves this country he better avoid breaking its spirit for a long long time. ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/253 "2016-06-26T19:17:56Z")
> [@mr\_wolf](#): > > Clever. > > I really hope that that is not the case. Hardship may be avoided but the people’s confidence in itself would sink to new lows. If Cameron really meant that he loves this country he better avoid breaking its spirit for a long long time. Cameron will have nothing to do with it. The reports and prognostications I heard before the vote was that Cameron would have to resign if Brexit passed. I don’t see why anyone was surprised by the fact he did so. And since he is stepping down, and I doubt he is going to run for the spot he just quit, if Article 50 is not invoked by the new head of the Tories, it isn’t his fault. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/254 "2016-06-26T19:52:59Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > ??? And what if it had been 97%. Or 18% or 7053%. It wasn’t, it was a bare majority a best. A 60/40 split is fairly definitive, but 52/48 in other circumstances would be within a margin of error. That’s all quite true. I mostly wanted to inquire whether your problem here was with the result of the referendum, or with the small margin. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/255 "2016-06-26T23:16:40Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > Okay [here’s](https://twitter.com/StigAbell/status/746825028197548036) an interesting comment from a reader of _The Guardian_ who anticipates that Cameron’s resignation is a ploy that will lead to the Brexit not being enacted. I’m sorry, but while I see the reasoning, I can’t agree. Yes, it will be a challenge, but it is not insurmountable. Gordian Knot, anyone? And, if I may be cheeky, Parliament will have to spend so much time on the matter that they won’t have time to spend fucking us over. ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2016, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/256 "2016-06-26T23:55:48Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > And, if I may be cheeky, Parliament will have to spend so much time on the matter that they won’t have time to spend fucking us over. I’m sorry, but this statement shows either a profound ignorance of the political process (Of any country) or an absolutely incredible amount of optimism. They can **always** find a way to screw us over. Usually without even thinking about it. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/257 "2016-06-27T00:28:13Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > That’s all quite true. I mostly wanted to inquire whether your problem here was with the result of the referendum, or with the small margin. Oh, sorry. Seems I missed your point and lumped you into the group who were arguing against me. My apologies. I am not British so I don’t really know what life was like in the UK before, or what it could be after, or indeed what was promised by leaving (aside from what I read online by alarmists or the confused). Remaining made the most sense to me, and the margin of error is frustrating because if they had gone with a “60% majority” clause, which is not an unreasonable stipulation, it would’ve worked out for them better. ---
**Author:** ![mr\_wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@mr\_wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr_wolf)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/258 "2016-06-27T02:36:23Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > Remaining made the most sense to me, and the margin of error is frustrating because if they had gone with a “60% majority” clause, which is not an unreasonable stipulation, it would’ve worked out for them better. It is very much an unreasonable stipulation. What kind of football sport would survive if the team which is currently topping the league would always win except if it loses by two goals? 0-0: team wins 1-0: team wins 0-1: team wins 1-1: team wins 2-1: team wins 1-2: team wins 2-0: team wins 0-2: oh, all right! You wouldn’t have much audience for that. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/259 "2016-06-27T04:37:09Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > Remaining made the most sense to me, and the margin of error is frustrating because if they had gone with a “60% majority” clause, which is not an unreasonable stipulation, it would’ve worked out for them better. > [@mr\_wolf](#): > > It is very much an unreasonable stipulation. What kind of football sport would survive if the team which is currently topping the league would always win except if it loses by two goals? > > 0-0: team wins > 1-0: team wins > 0-1: team wins > 1-1: team wins > 2-1: team wins > 1-2: team wins > 2-0: team wins > 0-2: oh, all right! > > You wouldn’t have much audience for that. That’s a silly comparison. Unlike a soccer game, the goal of the Brexit vote wasn’t to put on a good game for the fans. As was previously discussed upthread in this [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19429882&postcount=192), it makes good sense to require a supermajority for such a momentous, permanent change to the status quo such as this. This is not a soccer game, or even an election for political office. The former is a trivial comparison, and the latter is only temporary. After all, an election for political office is not permanent, but only lasts for the length of the term of office. Last week’s vote, on the other hand, is a permanent change to the governmental structure of the UK. You want there to be a supermajority for such a major change so that the results are incontrovertible, and wouldn’t likely be reversed in a (hypothetical) repeat vote. Here in the U.S., our Constitution requires supermajorities in several instances, including a 3/4 supermajority of state legislatures needed to ratify changes to the Constitution itself. This is intentionally set up to make it difficult to make such changes, and to ensure that any changes are overwhelmingly supported. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2016, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/260 "2016-06-27T04:54:02Z")
Also, requiring a supermajority to make a change to the status quo goes both ways, so it is indeed fair. For example, suppose that in the current Brexit vote, a supermajority of 60% was required to make a change to the status quo. In the actual election last week, the vote to “Leave” was 52%, which would be insufficient to change the status quo. Now let’s suppose that the vote to “Leave” was 62% instead. This would be sufficient, and not insignificantly, also demonstrates a clear mandate for change (which a 52% vote does not). So let’s suppose that the UK, in this example, does in fact leave the EU, and some time passes. By these rules, any subsequent referendum held thereafter (like a referendum to rejoin the EU, for example) would _also_ have to have a 60% supermajority to make a change. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125.md?page=14)