# UK EU In/Out referendum-:Polling day thread. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 23, 2016, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125 "2016-06-23T08:12:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/281 "2016-06-29T19:04:45Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > Basically, ‘pure’ democracy is highly vulnerable to demagoguery. In theory, ‘one man, one vote’ is satisfying, but in reality the vast majority of voters don’t have sufficient knowledge to make an informed decision. So they vote based on what sounds good to them or what they had for breakfast the morning of the vote. > [@mascaroni](#): > > Yes, we need a solution to deal with the _untermenschen_. > > Is that what you’re saying? :rolleyes: No, that’s not what we’re saying. See below. > [@mascaroni](#): > > Where did you come by the “fact” that the vast majority of voters don’t have sufficient knowledge to make an informed decision? I’d say this is pretty much self-evident. As I posted [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19439387&postcount=3) regarding this [article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/lessons-to-learn-from-the-brexit/2016/06/26/2642481e-3a4b-11e6-8f7c-d4c723a2becb_story.html): > [@E.J. Dionne in The Washington Post](#): > > “Don’t trash democracy or the voters. Where complicated choices are involved — and Brexit defines complexity — leaders in representative democracies need the guts to make hard calls and submit themselves to voters afterward. They should not use referendums purely to evade responsibility.” > [@mascaroni](#): > > If true, what do you suggest? A dictatorship? How about a representative democracy instead of government by referendum (aka direct democracy)? As I have posted repeatedly in this very thread: > [@robby](#): > > …it was lunacy to set up a situation where 43 years of treaties and trade agreements could be reversed by a simple majority vote in a glorified opinion poll by the general public. The general public simply does not have the background or the full picture to make an intelligent decision. > > This is why true direct democracy (as opposed to representative democracy) is a recipe for chaos. Even the ancient Athenians realized this, which is why they set up a balance between the Assembly (where direct democracy was exercised) and other governmental institutions. > > In a representative democracy, the people elect leaders who are expected to make good decisions, and who are then responsible for the consequences of those decisions. If you hand a major decision over to the people, especially one that basically boils down to maintaining or rejecting the status quo, some people will vote to make a change simply as a protest vote – even if what they are protesting has nothing to do with what is actually being voted on. > [@robby](#): > > …there is a stark difference between [representative democracy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy) and [direct democracy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy). Being in favor of the former in lieu of the latter does not make one anti-democratic. > > …A pure democracy is not the best way to run things. Sometimes it really is best to trust the experts, but to also hold them accountable. > > To take this to a ludicrous extreme: would you fly on a commercial airliner in which the passengers voted on how much fuel should be loaded onboard prior to taking off? Or would you trust that the experts that you have hired to fly the plane know what they are doing? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/282 "2016-06-29T19:33:25Z")
No, it was not lunacy to have a referendum. The EU has been a huge issue here for many years. Now we’ve had the referendum we can move on. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/283 "2016-06-29T19:40:59Z")
> [@robby](#): > > …I’d say this is pretty much self-evident. As I posted [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19439387&postcount=3) regarding this [article](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/lessons-to-learn-from-the-brexit/2016/06/26/2642481e-3a4b-11e6-8f7c-d4c723a2becb_story.html): Self-evident because a columnist from _The Washington Post_ wrote it? > [@](#): > > How about a representative democracy instead of government by referendum (aka direct democracy)? As I have posted repeatedly in this very thread… How you about not telling the British how to run our own country? ---
**Author:** ![mr\_wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@mr\_wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr_wolf)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/284 "2016-06-29T19:48:22Z")
> [@robby](#): > > How about a representative democracy instead of government by referendum (aka direct democracy)? As I have posted repeatedly in this very thread: Look, you have two choices, either you choose your own individual manufactured opinion or you can choose experts from whomever you want, between two pre-selected members of this website who will then choose the best person to represent you together with some moderators who were freely chosen before, who will together vote on this issue. The outcome will then be rechecked just to be sure by elected representatives of GCHQ in a joint committee with the elected representatives of the NSA. I suggest the latter given the lack of consensus and the complexity of the issue. You’ll have the power. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/285 "2016-06-29T19:52:09Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > No, it was not lunacy to have a referendum. The EU has been a huge issue here for many years. Now we’ve had the referendum we can move on. That wasn’t my full quote. I said it was “lunacy to set up a situation where 43 years of treaties and trade agreements could be reversed by a simple majority vote in a glorified opinion poll by the general public.” In that same post, I went on to say that: “If it was decided that a referendum was necessary for political reasons, at a minimum a high bar should have been set up from the start, which should have included a supermajority requirement for any change to the status quo.” Just 51.9% of UK voters voted to leave the EU. That’s hardly a mandate for a change of such magnitude, and hardly a reason to blithely say that the issue is settled and that you can “move on.” Indeed, I’d be willing to bet if the vote were held again tomorrow, the results would likely be reversed. Unlike a typical election for political office, though, this is a permanent change. Once Britain formally leaves the EU, that’s it. No going back. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/286 "2016-06-29T20:21:45Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > Self-evident because a columnist from _The Washington Post_ wrote it? No, that was just for illustration. It’s self-evident because your average person simply doesn’t have the time or expertise to make an informed decision on an issue of such complexity. What inevitably happens is that the complexity gets dumbed down, or demagoguery takes over the discussion. > [@mascaroni](#): > > How you about not telling the British how to run our own country? Oh, please, haven’t you British done the same to the U.S.? :rolleyes: For example: [How can 59,054,087 people be so DUMB? U.S. ELECTION DISASTER: PAGES 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, & 11](http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/classic-daily-mirror-us-election-front-1421769) Besides, I’m just a random poster on the internet. Feel free to ignore my ramblings. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/287 "2016-06-29T20:25:18Z")
I would not oppose having a referendum on a major national policy issue that has been strongly disputed for some years. And, once having held a referendum in which both sides were free to make their cases to the electorate, I believe the result should be respected and implemented, even if I disagreed with that result (as I firmly do with the Brexit vote). That’s democracy. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/288 "2016-06-29T20:43:50Z")
> [@robby](#): > > …It’s self-evident because your average person simply doesn’t have the time or expertise to make an informed decision on an issue of such complexity… Fair enough. Choose experts. Get Harry Kane taking corners and free kicks. Get The Birmingham Six imprisoned for years. Drive Sally Clark to madness then suicide. Choose Remain. Choose experts. > [@](#): > > Oh, please, haven’t you British done the same to the U.S.? :rolleyes: > > For example: > [How can 59,054,087 people be so DUMB? > U.S. ELECTION DISASTER: PAGES 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, & 11](http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/classic-daily-mirror-us-election-front-1421769) Yes, of course we have. Because _The Daily Mirror_ represents the views of every single person in the entire country. (Hint: Piers Morgan used to be its editor.) > [@](#): > > Besides, I’m just a random poster on the internet. Feel free to ignore my ramblings. 😉 [Sybil Fawlty] I think that’s best, don’t you? [/Sybil Fawlty]. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/289 "2016-06-29T21:35:35Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > Fair enough. Choose experts. Get Harry Kane taking corners and free kicks. Get The Birmingham Six imprisoned for years. Drive Sally Clark to madness then suicide. > > Choose Remain. Choose experts. So if any so-called “experts” have ever been wrong in the history of the world, or at least in your cherry-picked examples, we should never trust experts again? Besides, it’s not simply blind trust. There’s also the part about “holding elected officials responsible for the consequences of their actions.” Incidentally, without looking each of these references up, I don’t even know what any of them means. I’m pretty sure that none of them are relevant to the present discussion. Are you going out of your way to present a [straw man](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) argument? > [@mascaroni](#): > > …Yes, of course we have. Because _The Daily Mirror_ represents the views of every single person in the entire country. Another straw man. I never said that “every single person in the entire country” was responsible for the _The Daily Mirror_. It was a joking, tongue-in-cheek statement about “you British.” Would you feel better if I said, “some British”? ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/290 "2016-06-29T22:10:02Z")
> [@robby](#): > > So if any so-called “experts” have ever been wrong in the history of the world, or at least in your cherry-picked examples, we should never trust experts again? Cherry picked? They were the first examples that came to mind. I could add Thalidomide, Andrew Wakefield and Pot Noodles to that list. I can think of more if you want more… > [@](#): > > Besides, it’s not simply blind trust. There’s also the part about “holding elected officials responsible for the consequences of their actions.” When none of the major parties in Britain offered an alternative to staying in the EU, was it wrong to ask the electorate? > [@](#): > > Incidentally, without looking each of these references up, I don’t even know what any of them means. I’m pretty sure that none of them are relevant to the present discussion. Are you going out of your way to present a [straw man](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) argument? Ah, here we go… the Strawman argument… Maybe you’d like to explain what makes these particular people “experts”? > [@](#): > > Another straw man. I never said that “every single person in the entire country” was responsible for the _The Daily Mirror_. It was a joking, tongue-in-cheek statement about “you British.” Would you feel better if I said, “some British”? Would I feel better? Do you really think I give a toss? ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/291 "2016-06-29T23:11:55Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > Cherry picked? They were the first examples that came to mind. No doubt because of their relevance to the current discussion. :rolleyes: > [@mascaroni](#): > > I could add Thalidomide, Andrew Wakefield and Pot Noodles to that list. I can think of more if you want more… You can think of even more irrelevant examples? > [@mascaroni](#): > > …When none of the major parties in Britain offered an alternative to staying in the EU, was it wrong to ask the electorate? The way you hold elected officials responsible for the consequences of their actions is to vote them out of office. Wouldn’t it have been simpler to choose different elected officials instead of going the referendum route? Also, if the Brexit does indeed turn out to be a disaster, who do you hold responsible? All in all, it just seems silly (IMHO) to be making such a major decision on the basis of a simple majority in a single popular referendum, and a 52:48 vote is not exactly a huge mandate for such a change to the status quo. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/292 "2016-06-29T23:18:15Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > [Nigel Farage having a jolly good time i](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJzRa7HWVqs)n the EU parliament. _Published on Jun 27, 2016 Nigel Farage speaks to Fox News about Britain leaving the European Union._ [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FiZ90wz9eI) ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/293 "2016-06-30T00:17:03Z")
> [@robby](#): > > You can think of even more irrelevant examples? No, lets leave it in the hands of “experts”, they always know what’s best for us. Sod democracy, let Goldman Sachs decide Britain’s future. > [@](#): > > The way you hold elected officials responsible for the consequences of their actions is to vote them out of office. Wouldn’t it have been simpler to choose different elected officials instead of going the referendum route? So who do you think chose the “referendum route”? Unelected officials? > [@](#): > > Also, if the Brexit does indeed turn out to be a disaster, who do you hold responsible? It won’t be a disaster. It might not be all Sunshine and Lollipops, but we’ll get through it, we always do. What if remaining meant being ever more subservient to an increasingly powerful Germany? (I can already hear the chorus of execration. How dare I say such a horrible thing?) > [@](#): > > All in all, it just seems silly (IMHO) to be making such a major decision on the basis of a simple majority in a single popular referendum, and a 52:48 vote is not exactly a huge mandate for such a change to the status quo. It might seem silly to you, Rossi and Parfitt might disagree… ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/294 "2016-06-30T00:48:20Z")
27% of the British population voted to leave the EU. 37.44% of registered voters voted to leave the EU. In hindsight it was a monumental error to let such a critical decision with far-reaching consequences come down to a majority in a single vote. Since the Leavers were the challengers to the status quo and intended to steer the country in a radically different direction, the burden of proof should have been set higher for them to demonstrate they truly had the will of the people behind them. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/295 "2016-06-30T00:55:27Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > 27% of the British population voted to leave the EU. > 37.44% of registered voters voted to leave the EU. > > In hindsight it was a monumental error to let such a critical decision with far-reaching consequences come down to a majority in a single vote. > > Since the Leavers were the challengers to the status quo and intended to steer the country in a radically different direction, the burden of proof should have been set higher for them to demonstrate they truly had the will of the people behind them. No such burden of proof was set when Ted Heath took us into the EEC. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/296 "2016-06-30T01:27:58Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > 27% of the British population voted to leave the EU. > 37.44% of registered voters voted to leave the EU. > > In hindsight it was a monumental error to let such a critical decision with far-reaching consequences come down to a majority in a single vote. > > Since the Leavers were the challengers to the status quo and intended to steer the country in a radically different direction, the burden of proof should have been set higher for them to demonstrate they truly had the will of the people behind them. In hindsight, the losers of the vote believe it was a monumental error. The winners of the vote don’t see it the same way. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/297 "2016-06-30T03:17:30Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > No, lets leave it in the hands of “experts”, they always know what’s best for us. Sod democracy, let Goldman Sachs decide Britain’s future. By these comments, the only kind of “experts” that you seem to have in mind are unelected elites. However, I’m also talking about elected officials whose business it is to make good decisions for the country on behalf of their constituents. > [@mascaroni](#): > > So who do you think chose the “referendum route”? Unelected officials? I think that the referendum route was chosen by elected officials who have abdicated their responsibilities and turned over the important decision-making to the electorate. > [@mascaroni](#): > > It won’t be a disaster. It might not be all Sunshine and Lollipops, but we’ll get through it, we always do. Of course you will, and I mean this in all seriousness. > [@mascaroni](#): > > What if remaining meant being ever more subservient to an increasingly powerful Germany? This is a valid argument, and frankly speaking, I don’t know what the right answer is for the UK. My quibble (and this is just my opinion) is merely how the decision was made. In particular, I think that political leaders should “make the hard calls and submit themselves to voters afterward. They should not use referendums purely to evade responsibility.” In the event that a referendum becomes necessary for political reasons (because of dueling parties or constituencies or whatever), at a minimum a high bar should have been set up from the start, which should have included a supermajority requirement for any change to the status quo. > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > 27% of the British population voted to leave the EU. > 37.44% of registered voters voted to leave the EU. > > In hindsight it was a monumental error to let such a critical decision with far-reaching consequences come down to a majority in a single vote. > > Since the Leavers were the challengers to the status quo and intended to steer the country in a radically different direction, the burden of proof should have been set higher for them to demonstrate they truly had the will of the people behind them. > [@mascaroni](#): > > No such burden of proof was set when Ted Heath took us into the EEC. To be honest, a supermajority should have been required back in 1975 as well, IMHO. As it turns out, the vote to remain in the EEC back then was 67.2%. Should not a similar majority have been required to reverse this vote a generation later in 2016? Or simply to ensure that a substantial majority of the country was in agreement? As I’ve said several times now, a 51.9% vote in favor of leaving is not exactly a huge mandate for such a monumental, permanent change to the status quo. > [@doorhinge](#): > > In hindsight, the losers of the vote believe it was a monumental error. The winners of the vote don’t see it the same way. Frankly, I don’t have a dog in this fight, other than that I think that a stable and prosperous Europe and UK is a good thing. I think the monumental error was in how the decision was made by the UK to leave the EU. At present, it looks like a recipe for chaos, with the markets in turmoil, the resignation of the PM, and the country evenly split. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/298 "2016-06-30T04:16:09Z")
Here is an excellent article that makes many of the same points that I have been saying, but far more eloquently: [Should the Brexit Vote Have Happened at All?](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/06/brexit-vote-referendum-democracy/488654/) On the wisdom of handing the decision over to the electorate: > [@](#): > > “To have even a rudimentary sense of the pros and cons of Brexit…one would need to know about the economics and sociology of trade and immigration, the politics of centralized regulation, and the history of nationalist movements. But there is no reason to think even a tenth of the UK’s population has a basic grasp of the social science needed to evaluate Brexit.” Most British voters, like most voters everywhere, are “systematically ignorant” of elementary political facts and theories, and base their votes on flimsier considerations. > > In the days since the British referendum, for instance, there have been numerous reports of people describing their backing of Brexit as a protest vote against the Cameron government, not primarily as a request to leave the European Union. On the low bar set for a vote to leave the EU: > [@](#): > > …the issue is less the idea of the vote than the low bar officials established for Britain to secede from a union it’s been part of since 1973. Brexit required merely a simple majority of “leave” votes among the fraction of eligible voters who turned out at the polls. The one-off expression of the people’s will was not buttressed by stipulations that, say, a supermajority of the public approve of the exit, or a second referendum at a later date produce the same result, or a majority in Parliament support leaving the EU as well. A divisive decision with such far-reaching, long-lasting consequences—a nation-defining and potentially nation-fracturing choice—is deserving of more democratic checks and balances… Also: > [@](#): > > There’s a reason Margaret Thatcher once described referendums as “a device of dictators and demagogues.” Here’s another article (quoted in the first): [If referendums are the answer, we’re asking the wrong question](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/23/referendums-answer-wrong-question-politics-destruction) > [@](#): > > …Over the past half-century, Britain has drifted into a system of referendums that has few common rules or strict criteria. We talk about referendums being reserved for major constitutional issues, but without defining what such issues are. Sometimes a referendum is binding, sometimes not. …In the UK devolution [of power to regional parliaments] sometimes involves a referendum and sometimes not. European treaties can be subject to referendums but other treaties are not… Finally, here is an article on whether the EU itself is democratic or not: [Is the EU undemocratic?](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/13/is-the-eu-undemocratic-referendum-reality-check) > [@](#): > > …The idea that laws are dictated from Brussels by unelected bureaucrats is simply wrong. In fact, EU laws have to pass high hurdles before they get onto the British statute book. The British government has considerable clout in shaping those laws… > > …When leave campaigners talk about laws made by Brussels, what they mean is “laws made by the EU’s directly elected governments and more often than not the European parliament through the co-decision procedure.” Not as snappy, but more accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/299 "2016-06-30T04:18:37Z")
If all of that is true (and I believe that it is), then what is Farage’s game? He cannot possibly be ignorant of the things you mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125/300 "2016-06-30T05:06:44Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > If all of that is true (and I believe that it is), then what is Farage’s game? He cannot possibly be ignorant of the things you mentioned. It’s amazing what people can be ignorant of if they want to be. But Farage isn’t necessarily ignorant of these things. They’re just not what he’s on about. He wants the UK out of the EU. Knowing these things - if he does know them - hasn’t changed his mind about that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-eu-in-out-referendum-polling-day-thread/758125.md?page=16)