# UK firearm ban **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 13, 2002, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109 "2002-10-13T17:16:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109/21 "2002-10-14T11:12:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SenorBeef \* > \*\* > > I hate little stabs like this in GQs that are just bait for a counter-argument, but it’s not the right forum. > > Either take it to GD, or stop making those snide little comments, please. \*\* You picked up on that but not on this? > [@](#): > > _Originall posted by TBone2_ > **Stretches the American mind to picture over 160,000 lawful citizens voluntarily surrendering firearms, like sheep.** To answer that actual question posted, rather than the various snide comments, here goes: [1995 Canadian Department of Justice review of firearms statistics and regulations - British section](http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/en/research/publications/reports/1990-95/reports/siter_rpt.asp#5.0%20BRITAIN). > [@](#): > > 5.2.1 Regulation of Firearms > The firearms legislation places specified firearms and ammunition considered to be particularly dangerous in a prohibited category which cannot be possessed, purchased, acquired, manufactured, sold or transferred without the authority of the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State has absolute discretion to refuse his authority and there is no appeal against the decision, except by judicial review. Prohibited firearms include machine guns, and most self-loading and pump-action rifles and shotguns, disguised firearms and weapons which discharge noxious substances (i.e., includes CS, MACE and ‘electric stun guns’). Prohibited ammunition includes any ammunition which contains noxious substances, armour piercing or expanding ammunition and other military ammunition including missiles, rockets and bombs. Permission is not granted to private individuals expect in the most exceptional cases (Gilbert, April 19, 1995). > > The Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 included a power allowing the Secretary of State to issue regulations adding to the category any firearm which was not for sale in substantial numbers before 1988 and which appears to be: specifically dangerous; wholly or partly composed of material that cannot be detected by metal detectors; any ammunition which is not presently specified but appears to be specifically dangerous (Shroff, 1994, 82). > > It is only possible to purchase ammunition if you have a firearm or shotgun certificate. The only ammunition you can purchase is for the type of weapon covered by the certificate (Gilbert, 1995). > > Firearm dealers are regulated and anyone who manufactures, sells, transfers or repairs firearms or ammunition must be registered as a firearms dealer (Bartlett, 1990: 10). In addition, the dealer is required to maintain records of all transactions (Bartlett, 1990: 13). > > 5.2.2 Regulation of Firearm Owners > Great Britain operates a system whereby the individual is licensed to possess, or acquire firearms and each firearm possessed or acquired is notified to the police, who keep a record. There are two distinct certificates. A long barrelled shotgun which is incapable of firing more than three shots without manual reloading may be held on a shotgun certificate. All other firearms (except low-powered air guns) must be held on a firearm certificate. Ammunition is also subject to certificate control (Gilbert, April 19, 1995). > > The law does not define what is and what is not a good reason. But guidance is offered to the police which suggests that sporting, recreational and professional (e.g., vermin control) uses may be acceptable. The same guidance recommends that certificates should not be issued to those who want firearms for personal protection (Gilbert, April 19, 1995). > > When issuing a firearm or shotgun certificate, the Chief Police Officer must be satisfied that the applicant has a good reason to have a gun, and that he can have it without endangering public safety or peace. The good reason requirement is more stringent for firearms certificates than for shot guns certificates. To get a firearms certificate, an applicant must satisfy the police that he has a good reason, while the police must be satisfied that an applicant does not have a good reason before refusing to issue a shotgun certificate on this ground (Shroff, 1994: 84, Gilbert, April 19, 1995). Criminal background check are conducted on all applicants and counter signatures by designated persons (i.e., someone with good standing in the community) are required (Gilbert, March 28, 1995). Firearm and shotgun certificates list the number, type and serial number of each firearm and/or shotgun and any conditions. Both types of certificates are valid for five years (Gilbert, January 24, 1995). > > In 1989 the 43 police forces in England and Wales started recording the number of firearms and shotgun certificates on a computerized system (Home Office, 1994: 19). There is no national registry (Gilbert, March 28, 1995). > > The police can revoke a certificate. To do that, they must be satisfied that the holder is unfit to be trusted with the firearm(s) or shot gun(s) which it covers. Police decisions about the non-issue or revocation of certificates are subject to appeal. > > There are exceptions to the need for a certificate. For instance members of a rifle or pistol club approved by the Secretary of State do not need one to shoot as a member of the club. There are other exceptions for, e.g., foreign visitors (there is a visitors permit scheme), museums, auctioneers, antique guns, and most air weapons (i.e., less powerful types) (Gilbert, January 24, 1995). > > There are no age restrictions on shotgun certificate issue, however, the age requirement to obtain a firearm certificate is 14 years (Gilbert, April 19, 1995). It is an offence for a person under the age of 14 to have with him an air weapon or air weapon ammunition, unless under adult supervision or at a club or shooting gallery. Finally, it is an offence for a person under the age of 17 to have an air weapon with him in a public place unless it is securely covered, or at a club or shooting gallery (Gilbert, January, 24, 1995). > > Persons sentenced to any form of custody for a period of three years or more are prohibited from possessing firearms for life. Those sentenced for a period more than three months but less than three years are prohibited from possessing firearms for five years (Home Office, 1994: 18). > > The most serious offences, possession of a firearm or imitation firearm with intent to endanger life and use of a firearm or imitation firearm to resist arrest, are punishable by a maximum term of life imprisonment. Carrying a firearm or imitation firearm while committing or with intent to commit an indictable offence carries a maximum penalty of life imprisonment (Bartlett, 1990: 15, Gilbert, April 19, 1995). > > Possessing an imitation firearm, with intent to cause someone to fear that unlawful violence will be used against them or some other person, is an offence punishable by up to ten years imprisonment (Gilbert, January 24, 1995). There is also [this Home Office PDF from 2002 explaining in detail UK firearms regulations and the certification procedure](http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/pcrg/firearms/policeguide.pdf). It contains a detailed definition of what is and what is not prohibited, which is (a) too long to reproduce here and (b) in a columnar PDF format, which means I can’t even select nice chunks for you. It is probably the most up-to-date reference I’ve seen, though. ---
**Author:** ![Zorro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ad7895/32.png) [@Zorro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zorro)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109/22 "2002-10-14T17:10:33Z")
**UK resident gun owner here!** I have plenty of opinions involving the use of profanities on this, but I’m going to just state the facts. I’ll rant later. There are two types of licence for firearms: the Shotgun Certificate and the Firearms Certificate. The shotgun certificate does exactly what it says: it allows you to have shotguns. There is no real limit to how many you can have, and you do not need to demonstrate a good reason to won one, as it is legally a right, but they tend to not mention that and to try and intimidate applicants. You just have to take “reasonable security precautions” (no-one knows what that means but most people have a steel gun cabinet), and a policeman comes along to interview you to make sure that you’re not a loony. The firearms certificate covers all other firearms (including black powder weapons), and is backed up by the biggest pile of ill-thought-out legislation ever. It takes the police bloody ages to ever get anything done with these as it’s so unnecessarily difficult. In addition to the requirements for the grant of a shotgun certificate, you need to demonstrate a good reason, you have to apply for every single rifle individually, the ammunition is yet another matter, it’s an absolute never ending pain in the arse, and that’s exactly what it’s meant to be. And you can’t have any pistols at all except for black powder ones. Only you can’t buy black powder, that requires an Explosives Licence (you can get away with pyrodex though). It’s all designed to make you give up. The grant of a firearms certificate does not entitle one to have a shotgun, which is also stupid. I’m going to stop this now, only to return later to address the question of the Tyranny of the Majority, that has been touched upon earlier. Damn, the Masses can be annoying. But nowhere near as much as Tony and his Gang. ---
**Author:** ![Tuco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tuco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuco)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109/23 "2002-10-14T18:16:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chriszarate \* > \*\*From what I understand, police have access to guns, but generally don’t cary them on patrol. They don’t need to. (The beauty of a firearm ban!) Someone from the UK care to clarify further? \*\* IIRC - general police walking the streets (bobbies on the beat) don’t carry guns, but do carry CS gas cannisters. For firearms incidents, the Armed Response Unit is called which for most forces consists of a couple of cars with a couple of firearms experts in. Don’t confuse these with SWAT teams, they don’t wear as much body armour and use MP5s. I’m sure London is different and would have a much bigger firearms section. To put things in perspective, my local ARU hasn’t fired a shot since 1998. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109/24 "2002-10-14T18:53:28Z")
Police firearms usage: [ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) policy on firearms deployment](http://www.westmercia.police.uk/mogpuf.htm). ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109/25 "2002-10-14T18:56:37Z")
There was always the feeling that the largest source of illegal weapons was from legal owners. There are plenty of cases where legal firearms dealers were sources for ammunition, and reactivated weapons for the criminals. What I can say from personal experience is that the penalties imposed on known criminals for posessing firearms are now so severe that habitual villains deem the risk of having them as being too great. I love it when folk talk about the tyranny of the majority when they mean democracy, it gets applied by the hunting, shooting brigade to the rest of UK society rather too frequently. If you really want to live in an extremist nation where your opinion really does not count for anything at all then I’m sure you can find plenty of places to pack your bags and sod off to.After a few years of living under such regimes then maybe you might temper your arguments about opression when you return here. If you go out and about the UK public and ask them if it is “a good thing” for more firearms to be made more easily available I would be surprised to come across a majority in favour of that. I would be very interested to see any cite that states or proves that the majority of UK people think that having more guns around is a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109/26 "2002-10-14T22:33:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*Ye…es, if you believe that owning a firearm is a fundamental right, which I don’t. \*\* Two words, **Mangetout** : [**Molon Labe**](http://www.thefiringline.com/HCI/molon_labe.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2002, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109/27 "2002-10-14T22:53:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crafter\_Man \* > \*\* > Two words, **Mangetout** : [**Molon Labe**](http://www.thefiringline.com/HCI/molon_labe.htm) \*\* Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109/28 "2002-10-15T11:28:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crafter\_Man \* > \*\* > Two words, **Mangetout** : [**Molon Labe**](http://www.thefiringline.com/HCI/molon_labe.htm) \*\* And that is relevant why, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109/29 "2002-10-15T11:57:52Z")
Call me faint-hearted, but somehow the invocation of an ancient Greek battlecry on an anti-gun-control website fails to convince me. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109/30 "2002-10-15T12:18:44Z")
I’ve been thinking about the Tyrrany of the Majority, and it’s struck me that this is another word for “democracy not going my way”. E.g. I’m not in favour of the death penalty, but I believe the majority of UK citizens are. If it was ever put to a referendum it would get back in. Tyrrany of the Majority, I tell you! However, when it comes to guns, that’s perfectly democratic. Bad luck old boy. ---
**Author:** ![Zorro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ad7895/32.png) [@Zorro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zorro)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109/31 "2002-10-15T12:34:27Z")
**Casdave** , nobody is saying that the majority in the UK thinks that having more guns around is a good thing. It simply isn’t true. However, it is definitely a bad thing that 800,000 firearms owners are treated as crime suspects as a matter of course because a couple of bastards went off the rails. Now as for legal gun owners being a source for illegal firearms, well, you’re always going to have a few people who abuse their freedoms. But is that a good enough reason to take away this freedom from everyone? I certainly don’t think so, but it depends on how much importance relative you attach to individual liberty and overall perceived security. If you wanted to rob a bank, you’d be unlikely to go to the trouble of stealing a double-barrelled shotgun, and you certainly wouldn’t bother to go through the legal process. No, you’d go and buy an AK-47 for £100 from Big Dave in Brixton. It’s cheaper too, and an unregistered gun can’t be traced to you. There are Home Office statistics that back this up. I’ll see if I can find a link to them. ---
**Author:** ![JAPrufrock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@JAPrufrock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JAPrufrock)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109/32 "2002-10-15T14:19:49Z")
Here are some figures for you…: Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated): Homicide Suicide Unintentional USA 4.08 (1999) 6.08 (1999) 0.42 (1999) Canada 0.54 (1999) 2.65 (1997) 0.15 (1997) Switzerland 0.50 (1999) 5.78 (1998) - Scotland 0.12 (1999) 0.27 (1999) - England/Wales 0.12 (1999/00) 0.22 (1999) 0.01 (1999) Japan 0.04\* (1998) 0.04 (1995) \<0.01 (1997) - Homicide & attempted homicide by handgun Data collected by Philip Alpers, Harvard Injury Control Research Center, and HELP Network So, to simplify, the U.S. has easy, legal access to guns, and lots of gun violence. The U.K. has strict, almost oppressive laws, and very little gun violence. The question is, which do you prefer? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109/33 "2002-10-15T14:28:29Z")
I’ve tried that argument before, **J. Alfred**. Pro-gunners complain the figures are not comparable, because overall US crime is very high anyway. Also, Switzerland too (IIRC) has high gun ownership and low crime. The exceptions ‘proving’ the rule, IYKWIM. ---
**Author:** ![Zorro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ad7895/32.png) [@Zorro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zorro)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109/34 "2002-10-15T15:27:23Z")
I’m not a pro-gunner, I’m anti people trying to stop other people generally and myself in particular from participating in activities that don’t harm anyone else. My original gripe was with gun control. It has now grown quite a lot beyond that, but the first problem remains. As for the statistics that you quote, I do indeed think that the US is a case apart, as it is for just about everything for that matter. Switzerland is also a weird one. Having lived there for a while I heard hardly anyone complaining about the incidence of violent petty crime that terrifies people (often a lot more than is reasonable) in the UK and France. I suspect that one of the reasons for this is that it’s a little El Dorado in the middle of Europe where few people are financially desperate enough to resort to petty crime. As for their attitude to guns, they just take them as a fact of life like they do electric kettles and cow dung. In fact in Zurich there was half a day’s public holiday for the annual _Knabbenschiessen_, which was a target rifle competition for kids. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109/35 "2002-10-15T15:38:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JAPrufrock \* > \*\*the U.S. has easy, legal access to guns, and lots of gun violence. The U.K. has strict, almost oppressive laws, and very little gun violence. The question is, which do you prefer? \*\* The former. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109/36 "2002-10-15T15:42:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crafter\_Man \* > \*\*The former. \*\* And the vast majority in the UK prefer the latter. Everyone to their own and all that. Coo. Can we go home now? ---
**Author:** ![Zorro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ad7895/32.png) [@Zorro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zorro)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109/37 "2002-10-15T16:17:35Z")
No, because the vast majority in the UK may be perfectly right to be worried about gun crime, but they are wrong to believe that restructing legal ownership of firearms has a significant effect on it. So while they may want more restrictions, they are mislead, as it is not actually a solution to the problem. The Home Office admits this (where the hell are those damned figures that I mentioned?) but no politician is ever going to back that. Essentially, it’s bad law, bad government, it does no one any good but it does piss off a fair number of people and deny them their harmless fun. However, picking on unpopular minorities to ingratiate oneself to the majority is a practice that has shown itself to be effective many times. And El Caudillo Blair is particularly adept at using it if it will distract the public and his MPs from sticking their noses into more important things. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109/38 "2002-10-15T16:33:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zorro \* > No, you’d go and buy an AK-47 for £100 from Big Dave in Brixton. One of the problems is that Michael Ryan and Thomas Hamilton did not do this AFAIK. They use legally held firearms didn’t they? Ireland also has pretty strict gun laws and a mainly unarmed police force. Yes there are plenty of guns held by criminals and paramilitaries but the general public does not have access to guns. IMO and the opinion of almost every one I know think this is a good thing. I used guns on ranges and clay pigeon areas and it is indeed a very enjoyable pastime but not enough for to change my mind on gun control. ---
**Author:** ![Bromley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4da419/32.png) [@Bromley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bromley)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109/39 "2002-10-15T16:45:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crafter\_Man \* > \*\* > Two words, **Mangetout** : [**Molon Labe**](http://www.thefiringline.com/HCI/molon_labe.htm) \*\* (I’m not going to let the hamsters get the better of me, so I’m reposting this). hehe. Well know for their great ideas and modern thinking 😃 . ---
**Author:** ![Dagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a698b9/32.png) [@Dagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dagon)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109/40 "2002-10-15T18:43:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Ireland also has pretty strict gun laws Some of the strictest in Europe I believe. Anything vaguely handgun shaped is prohibited. Centre fire semi-auto rifles are banned. Rifles over .27" in calibre are banned. Any sort of replica is out including the likes of AirSoft guns. You also need a separate certificate for every rifle and shotgun. You also need a certificate for air rifles. And you usually have need a good reason to have one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-firearm-ban/132109.md?page=3)