# UK football, season 2008/09, forecasts **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 7, 2008, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150 "2008-08-07T12:09:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Discordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Discordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discordia)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150/621 "2009-02-02T11:59:48Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > The trouble with saying that someone should be sent of for an “obvious” violation of the rules is that obvious violations of the rules happen every game, every league, all the time. How often is there a picture of an attacking and defending player, both going for the ball, one with his hand on the other’s shorts, while the other has a fistful of the first player’s jersey? Push, pull, jump at, kick, trip, etc. happen all the time. Fortunately for the game, or maybe unfortunately, no league enforces the rules as written. I’m certainly not saying people should be sent off for a little mutual shirt pulling or anything. I’m not advocating an extreme change, just somewhat less leniency. There’s too much rule breaking allowed in the name of having a “flowing” game or whatever. It’s rather annoying when one sees, say, Vidic use a player as a springboard to score a goal. It happens pretty regularly. Bizarrely, refs are happy to call a foul for a little shirt pulling in the area even when no goal results. It’s like the goal makes them _less_ likely to call a foul, it should be the other way round! There are numerous such quirks that are especially prevalent in the EPL that annoy me. > [@](#): > > As a teacher, I am well aware that the broader goal of managing the situation is what controls what one does in the way of “enforcement.” I, too, have the ability to “send off” a “player” (student) for telling me to “fuck off.” Depending on the situation, I might well do that. But if I can get the student to realize that’s not acceptable, without sending him off to the principal’s office, where he will be written up and suspended, thus missing school, isn’t that preferable? After all, the goal isn’t to enforce rules. The goal is to have a good game (in my case, by educating all my students as much as possible). Sure. That’s what the yellow card is for. You tell the ref to fuck off, you get warned with a yellow. Simple, no? The player stays on the pitch, and learns that such behaviour has consequences. Serial offenders like Wayne and Stevie G should get straight reds, though. Players should not be allowed to abuse referees, and some players simply do not get it, and won’t until they start getting sent off for it. > [@](#): > > Different leagues have different flavors of play. This has always been the case, and always, God willing, will be. It should not be the case that we see the same soccer in Argentina that we see in Italy that we see in England. That’s part of what makes the World Cup so interesting: we get to see the clash of styles and wonder which style of play will win the day. But since EVERY league is having to decide exactly what level of tolerance it will have for activity on the field that violates the Laws, the bar will be different from league to league. Sure, and I’m saying the EPL’s standard is too lenient, and results in absurdities. Like Wayne Rooney telling the ref to fuck off on live television after scything a player down and not even getting an official (a yellow) warning. I don’t mind if they’re more lenient than other leagues, to allow a more physical game to flow. They’re just too lenient, is all. > [@](#): > > It’s been known for decades that the English game is a more physical game. This doesn’t translate to a more negative game, if you measure that by goals scored. As my statistic quoted last time shows, the Italian and English games are scoring at roughly the same rate this year; indeed, the English teams are managing slightly more goals per game. Are there times when we see obvious fouls go unpunished? Yes. But in Serie A, there are times when people are punished for having done nothing. Which is preferable? I know which I prefer, which is why you see much less diving and rolling around in the EPL than you do elsewhere. Hell, even Ronaldo has learned the lesson there. I’m not sure where I said it was a more negative league, I don’t think it is generally (compared to Serie A or Ligue 1 anyway), though I think it’s been getting more and more so. Perhaps just an aberration though, I hope so. As for being punished over nothing, I’d honestly prefer some players get yellows for doing nothing than serial cheats like Gerrard or Mascherano (or RVP or Alves from my preferred teams, to be fair) continuing their ways. Obviously you want a balance, but I don’t like cheats prospering, even if the cost is some players being unjustly punished. I really wish football would grow up and use video evidence when needed, though, which would eliminate most of these issues (it could just use it for Big Decisions, red cards, penalties etc, and perhaps most importantly could ban players post match for things like diving). > [@](#): > > I don’t mean to make you think I’m rubbishing your underlying desire. I recognize that you want two things: you want to see “beautiful” soccer, soccer like it was when the Hungarians were playing it in the 50s, or like the Brazilian teams of Pele played. You also dislike drawn games. That latter dislike is a trait you share with the overwhelming majority of American sports fans (which is why I think Americans are generally idiots when it comes to sports). In answer to your two valid themes I say these two things: first, don’t conflate these legitimate desires with what appears to be a tendency to engage in loose thinking to trash what you don’t like, and second, consider that soccer was always MEANT to have both drawn games, and defensive play. The better process for enjoyment may be to learn to appreciate both, as they happen. It’s not that I want to see “beautiful” games per se, it’s an extreme dislike for _dirty_ games. Real Madrid taking turns kicking Messi pissed me off, Stoke playing the most ugly “football”(more like headball) imaginable against Citeh didn’t, though Delap being a thug did. Re draws & defensive play, I thought I’d said I don’t mind them. If two teams try to win a game and end it 2-2, that’s cool. I just want teams to try to win, that’s it. I don’t mind situational defensive play (being ahead being the obvious case), I dislike playing for 0-0 from the off. > [@](#): > > After all, in the end, the point to the league is to do the best you can, not to score a lot of goals, or play beautiful soccer. 😉 Of course. I don’t begrudge a Tony Pulis and his players just trying to stay up (though I don’t think their methods are very effective), that’s why you try to nudge the rules around to make the most effective method also the best for the viewer. > [@](#): > > You see, when you claim physical = violence, you lose me. It’s a much more physical league than Serie A/La Liga, but I would argue less violent (though I watch much less Italian and Spanish footy than I used to). You can be physical without being violent, and there seem to be less genuinely brutal tackles in the Premier League than in the major European ones - defining brutal as “attempt to shatter bones in the legs.” When I watched all three regularly, studs up challenges were WAY more accepted in Europe. I didn’t say physical = violence… Not sure how one could prove my impression that there’s more violence in the EPL. I don’t just mean bone crushing stuff, but general crashing of bodies, heads getting whacked etc. The sort of thing that’s routine in American Football 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Discordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Discordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discordia)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2009, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150/622 "2009-02-02T12:03:45Z")
On a more fun note (Chelsea’s woes), anyone else surprised how spineless they’ve become? Aside from the comical refereeing performance, their performances against both 'pool and United were absolutely horrific. I still suspect Malouda is actually an imposter who kidnapped a real footballer. Ballack doesn’t look much more interested. Getting rid of Deco looks like the best decision Barcelona made for a long time. And Drogba so obviously wants out it’s painful. Kalou is…mediocre. So given that their entire front line is just bloody awful, anyone think the team that should really be worried about their CL place is actually Chelsea? Especially given that Arsenal should be getting a few players back from injury soon, and have been on a pretty decent run anyway. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150/623 "2009-02-03T20:54:18Z")
> [@Discordia](#): > > I didn’t say physical = violence… > > Not sure how one could prove my impression that there’s more violence in the EPL. I don’t just mean bone crushing stuff, but general crashing of bodies, heads getting whacked etc. The sort of thing that’s routine in American Football 😛 Well if your impression is that general crashing of bodies is violence, then you completely lose me again. That’s a physical game, not a violent one. The violence I see is more the cynical Italian/Spanish tackling which is designed to injure. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150/624 "2009-02-03T21:02:08Z")
I don’t see the problem with Rooney or anyone else saying “Oh, fuck off, ref!”, immediately after a decision. If after a verbal caution he then continues to call the ref a blind bastard, fair enough, but not just for swearing at a ref in the heat of the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Discordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Discordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discordia)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150/625 "2009-02-03T21:09:37Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Well if your impression is that general crashing of bodies is violence, then you completely lose me again. That’s a physical game, not a violent one. The violence I see is more the cynical Italian/Spanish tackling which is designed to injure. Let’s see: –noun 1. swift and intense force: the violence of a storm. 2. rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment: to die by violence. (others pretty unrelated) It seems rather swift, intense, rough, and often injurious. So yeah, violence. “Physical” to me is just when players tussle for the ball, the kind of thing the likes of Drogba (well, in the past) & Vidic get paid for. Obviously the cynical tackling designed to injure is also violent, though I can’t fathom why you refer to it as “Italian/Spanish”. > [@ivan astikov](#): > > I don’t see the problem with Rooney or anyone else saying “Oh, fuck off, ref!”, immediately after a decision. If after a verbal caution he then continues to call the ref a blind bastard, fair enough, but not just for swearing at a ref in the heat of the moment. It wasn’t after a decision, it was after a non-decision. Well, a free kick I guess. For a yellow card offense, but anyway. He walked away throwing his hand up and shouted fuck off. Personally I think that’s petulant and childish and shouldn’t be allowed, but regardless of my opinion, the rules are very clear that it should be punished. It usually is. Arjen Robben absolutely deserved his second yellow for telling a ref to fuck off for not giving Madrid a penalty. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150/626 "2009-02-03T21:43:07Z")
If that was a players reaction to _every_ decision that went against them, I’d be inclined to agree with them being sent off for disrespect. ---
**Author:** ![Discordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Discordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discordia)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150/627 "2009-02-03T22:23:38Z")
This is Wayne Rooney we’re talking about 😛 While it may not be to _every_ decision, he does it pretty regularly, and never gets punished. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150/628 "2009-02-04T00:55:09Z")
If you sent off every player who used “offensive, abusive or insulting language”, or cautioned every player who dissents by word or action with the decision of the referee (the actual language from Law XII), you’d end up with almost no one on the pitch in an EPL game, or any other game among adults. So, once again, you have to decide what reaches the point that the behavior has to be cautioned, or what reaches the point the player cannot be allowed to continue the game. A referee in a professional game has to develop a thick skin. I’ve officiated professional games, so I can say this with certainty. Would _I_ have at least cautioned Wayne Rooney for that situation? Possibly, indeed, my instinct is to say I would have, and it was the same feeling I had at the time I was watching the game. But who is to say that the referee wasn’t right? After all, I didn’t see Rooney do that again that game, so maybe the referee handled the situation just fine. So, you can’t just say, “he used foul language, he should have been sent off.” It just doesn’t work that way, and, I’ll wager, hasn’t for at least 40 years. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150/629 "2009-02-04T15:28:19Z")
> [@Discordia](#): > > Let’s see: > > –noun > > 1. swift and intense force: the violence of a storm. > 2. rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment: to die by violence. > (others pretty unrelated) > > It seems rather swift, intense, rough, and often injurious. So yeah, violence. “Physical” to me is just when players tussle for the ball, the kind of thing the likes of Drogba (well, in the past) & Vidic get paid for. > > Obviously the cynical tackling designed to injure is also violent, though I can’t fathom why you refer to it as “Italian/Spanish”. If you resort to a dictionary definition of physical, well, it shows we are on different pages. Football fans know what physical play is when they see it (like porn) and they know what violent play is when they see it. And the two ain’t the same thing. Why do I call the cynical/violent/deliberately attempting to injure play Spanish/Italian? Because I saw that kind of tacking way more often in the Spanish/Italian leagues than in the British Leagues. Willy Young on Paul Allen in the 1980 Cup Final notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150/630 "2009-02-04T16:51:57Z")
So the transfer window shuts until the summer and who did City get? Bellamy, Given and De-Jong, total outlay £47M, more than any other team in any of the 4 divisions. Hardly earth shattering is it? Were thwarted in their attempts to sign Kaka and Roque Sante Cruz and any other player of quality they may have had their eyes on. Then what do they do? Loan Jo to Everton. ::smack:: A player that cost £18M is “LOANED” to one of City’s rivals Still there’s always the summer window in which to renew attempts, maybe that time they’ll have more success. In other news: The mighty Rochdale win yet again (away) and are now in 4th position just 1 point behind Bury but Dale have a game in hand, win that and they’re in the automatic promo spot. I told you upthread they were going up this year and I have my money on 'em. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150/631 "2009-02-04T18:31:11Z")
R.I.P. [Birchie](http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/a/aston_villa/7864941.stm). You were never great, but you ran your heart out, and your hair was always outstanding. I guess with turning 40 on Saturday, more and more of the players I watched from the terraces will start going tits up, though Birch was obviously too young. ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150/632 "2009-02-04T18:36:49Z")
> [@villa](#): > > R.I.P. [Birchie](http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/a/aston_villa/7864941.stm). You were never great, but you ran your heart out, and your hair was always outstanding. > > I guess with turning 40 on Saturday, more and more of the players I watched from the terraces will start going tits up, though Birch was obviously too young. Yes, I saw him play. Why is it the decent people go first while evil bastards live on? ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150/633 "2009-02-04T23:58:50Z")
Did anyone watch the game tonight on ITV - 110 minutes of typical derby football wihtout any goals, and they then cut to a commerical break in the middle of play :mad: Game come’s back on and everyone at Goodison is going mental because we’ve scored! Fucks sake, amateur broadcasting. I ain’t complaining though, nothing like putting Liverpool to the sword. We deserved it tbh, once Stevie went off and Fernando climbed into Jagielka’s pocket it was like playing a combative version of Fulham. Lucas gets sent off and we had to win it - there was no way on earth we would have won penalties. Villa next up, at Goodison 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150/634 "2009-02-05T08:13:05Z")
Slight nitpick 117 mins and then they decided to show ads. A minute later and the Toffees score ---
**Author:** ![fortytwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f9ae1b/32.png) [@fortytwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fortytwo)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150/635 "2009-02-05T10:56:12Z")
> [@chowder](#): > > Slight nitpick > > 117 mins and then they decided to show ads. A minute later and the Toffees score Depends on which part of the country / or which format you viewed it. I was watching on terrestrial itv and by the time we got back to the game Everton players had finished kissing one another and were walking back for the restart. Torres didn’t seem right to me, I don’t know if he’s completely fit or not or perhaps just getting tired of being the lone ranger in attack. It looks like to me that Liverpool have blown the title and Champions League tis season. ---
**Author:** ![Discordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Discordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discordia)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150/636 "2009-02-05T12:46:54Z")
Looks like my hope/expectation that most of the English teams will get knocked out is going nicely. Liverpool falling apart (in stark contrast to Madrid), Chelsea falling apart even faster (Juve stumbling too, but Chelsea are really awful at the moment), United possibly improving, hopefully not. Arsenal probably improving, thankfully that’s the one English team I don’t mind winning 🙂 Villa’s fixtures: Wed 18 19:00 H CSKA Moscow UEFA Sat 21 12:45 H Chelsea PREM Thu 26 19:45 A CSKA Moscow UEFA March Sun 1 15:00 H Stoke City PREM Wed 4 19:45 A Manchester City PREM Sun 15 16:00 H Tottenham PREM Sun 22 16:00 A Liverpool PREM April Sat 4 15:00 A Man Utd PREM Sat 11 15:00 H Everton PREM Mix of very tough and very inconsistent teams, really tough. If they come through with flying colors (especially if they beat Chelsea) then it’s officially Chelsea v Arsenal for the CL. If not, they could be screwed. Might be a good idea for them to just forget about the UEFA cup. **chowder** , I’m pretty sure 'appy 'arry spent more reassembling the Tottenham team that uh, sucked. Defoe, Keane, Palacios, Chimbonda, that’s more than 47. no? God I hope Tottenham get relegated. So many other dreadful teams around, though, they might not! ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150/637 "2009-02-05T15:43:31Z")
> [@Discordia](#): > > **chowder** , I’m pretty sure 'appy 'arry spent more reassembling the Tottenham team that uh, sucked. Defoe, Keane, Palacios, Chimbonda, that’s more than 47. no? > ! I forgot to mention Wayne Bridge, add another £12M Tell me, why do you want all the English teams out? What have we ever done to upset you? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150/638 "2009-02-05T16:16:29Z")
> [@Busy\_Scissors](#): > > Villa next up, at Goodison 🙂 Everton must be shaking in their boots after we knocked out the mighty Doncaster. Well, that is if some theiving scouse bastard hasn’t stolen their boots. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150/639 "2009-02-05T16:49:02Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Everton must be shaking in their boots after we knocked out the mighty Doncaster. > > Well, that is if some theiving scouse bastard hasn’t stolen their boots. - Hey, hey, alright, alright! Calm down, calm down soft lad!\* Have you sen that Everton player who just lacks the tash to be a perfect “Scouse git”? Felainnie, or something. 🙂 Hang on, let me find a pic. Damn, there are no recent ones! ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150/640 "2009-02-05T17:02:22Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Everton must be shaking in their boots after we knocked out the mighty Doncaster. > > Well, that is if some theiving scouse bastard hasn’t stolen their boots. I thought it was just hub caps they nicked 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-football-season-2008-09-forecasts/459150.md?page=33)