# UK Green party peer suggests 6 pm curfew for men **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 15, 2021, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953 "2021-03-15T20:19:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/282 "2021-03-21T22:40:22Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > So the answer is “behave or we might get worse?” We? Who is “we?” It’s really toxic to try to divide the world into teams like this. Especially when it’s “you’re either everything I command you to be or you’re subhuman scum.” “Men” are not a team or a monolith. You seem to subconsciously believe they are. > [@Dangerosa](#): > > Really, this is your argument? And no, my argument is if the first thing people hear from you is derision and insults, they’re going to walk away. If after that, they hear “wow, those people were really mean, that sucks bro, why don’t you come sit with us?” they’re far more likely to say yes. Do _you_ want to associate with people who call you names, consider you subhuman or lesser than, repeatedly tell you you’re irrelevant and need to shut up? Do you want to _listen_ to those people? And what if, after that, someone seemingly kind hearted sits down and says to you “I had the same experience with those people. Let me hear your side,” would that not be an attractive offer? Think about the times you have been _explicitly_ told either to shut up or that your feelings don’t matter. Did the person saying that to you appear more or less credible? Did you want to associate more, or less with that person? Then flip it. The last time someone was inviting and listened to you, did they appear less or more credible? Did you want to associate more or less with that person? > [@Dangerosa](#): > > Someone on the fence about joining a MRA group isn’t going to be a good ally anyway, and isn’t someone I would trust to have a date with. These people aren’t on the fence about joining MRA’s. Most of them, so far as I can tell, haven’t even _heard_ of MRAs until someone starts accusing them of being one. They don’t seek out those groups _because_ they have strong opinions that align with them. It’s more like “what is this MRA thing they keep calling me?” They wind up checking out those groups and then getting indoctrinated and radicalized because instead of being insulted, belittled and alienated they’re welcomed with open arms and drizzle fed all sorts of nonsense. Ultimately, when you’re asking someone to _do_ something (anything, including not doing something), you’re making a sales pitch. “I hate you, you monster” is a really, really bad sales pitch. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/283 "2021-03-21T23:02:17Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > If your goal is to be heard and understood, _starting from_ a position of “you are a subhuman monster equivalent to Satan’s spawn and I find your misery hilarious” is not a smart approach. **#notallstrawmen** > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > My pount was simply that there are countries out there with horrific attitudes towards women, and if you are truly interested in helping women it might be a good idea to not import hundreds of thousands of unmarried young men from such a culture en masse and unassimilated such that they bring their culture with them. Thank you for making a point that had little to do with the subject at hand, isn’t remotely supported by evidence and is based on ludicrous stereotypes and fearmongering. In the same vein, I would like to come out against the importation of millions of rabid wolverines. Clearly there are many dangerous animals out there that we should not be letting loose in our elementary schools, and I feel people are too swift to dismiss the danger they pose. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/284 "2021-03-21T23:03:18Z")
#NotAllRabidWolverines ---
**Author:** ![kitap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@kitap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitap)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/285 "2021-03-21T23:42:04Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > > [@Dangerosa](#): > > > > So the answer is “behave or we might get worse?” > > We? Who is “we?” It’s really toxic to try to divide the world into teams like this. Especially when it’s “you’re either everything I command you to be or you’re subhuman scum.” > > “Men” are not a team or a monolith. You seem to subconsciously believe they are. > > > [@Dangerosa](#): > > > > Really, this is your argument? > > Do _you_ want to associate with people who call you names, consider you subhuman or lesser than, repeatedly tell you you’re irrelevant and need to shut up? Yeah, I pretty much already do this. It’s called being a female night auditor at an upscale resort. You’re describing about 20% of my interactions with guests. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/286 "2021-03-21T23:53:33Z")
> [@kitap](#): > > Yeah, I pretty much already do this. It’s called being a female night auditor at an upscale resort. You’re describing about 20% of my interactions with guests. That’s terrible. Really, it is. I’ve worked customer service and been on the receiving end of _some_ abuse, but I haven’t had to deal with entitled rich jerks who want all the wrong things out of me so I can only speculate just how bad it was. Understand, I _do_ want that to change for you. You shouldn’t _have_ to deal with that. But my question to you (and anyone who’s looking for civil discussion) is how you feel about being treated that way. Would you, for instance, choose to interact with those 20% of people if it wasn’t your livelihood? Put another way, given no other incentive like pay or work requirements, would you freely choose those a-holes over the ones who aren’t jerks? And when they treat you that way, do you think more highly or less highly of them? About their beliefs? After a long day of work and having to deal with those people, is it not at least a minor relief to be able to join or read a discussion group that calls those people out for making you feel that way? I don’t mean to ask obvious questions and of course I can guess at your answer. But take those feelings that 20% invoke in you and apply it here. If one of those 20% came at you and started saying that A) you _should_ feel that way and B) you _have_ to agree with them, would you even _want_ to hear them out? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/287 "2021-03-22T00:55:18Z")
For about the sixteenth time, or maybe the sixtieth: nobody is saying the crap you’re attributing to us. You’re doing the equivalent of showing up at Burger King screaming at them for giving you a bad ptarmigan wing sandwich. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/288 "2021-03-22T01:46:09Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > I can say I’m saying there are a lot of men who would listen to and try to understand with and maybe even comply with your requests who hear the way you treat them with explicit hatred and join MRA and incel groups instead. First of all, it’s been pointed out by a lot of other posters that “explicit hatred” is a very exaggerated way of describing the criticisms of some male behavior that have been made here. But what strikes me is that even if there are some men who are reacting that way to what they consider “explicit hatred”, aren’t these men being really fragile snowflakes in their overreaction? Flounce out of civilized society entirely and go join an incel/MRA pack just because you think some women were mean to you? Really? After all, I and most other women encounter online evidence of genuine explicit hatred towards women from men all the time. We don’t think that entitles us to go start some female equivalent of incel/MRA groups. Just because some men are horrible assholes to us doesn’t entitle us to be horrible assholes to half the human species in return. Don’t you think those “lot of men” you speak of should be at least a bit ashamed of themselves for giving themselves permission to be horrible assholes of the incel/MRA type just because they think some women were mean to them? Aren’t you a bit ashamed of yourself for treating their inexcusable vindictive behavior as though it’s just a natural and predictable consequence of receiving some criticism that comes across as too harsh and “hateful”? Don’t you think such men have an ethical obligation instead to put on their big boy pants and hold themselves to reasonable standards of decent behavior, rather than making some “hateful” criticism an excuse for turning into horrible assholes? > [@etasyde](#): > > It’s really toxic to try to divide the world into teams like this. Well, you’re the one who started making excuses for “a lot of men” voluntarily signing up for the incel/MRA “team” because they were butthurt about supposedly not being treated as nicely by some women as they felt they deserved. What’s toxic is not that such behavior is being criticized, but that you’re trying to make out that such behavior is somehow the fault of women for allegedly being too harsh in some of their criticisms of men. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/289 "2021-03-22T02:34:02Z")
@Kimtsu I typed up a _much_ longer reply, but rather than get lost in the woods, this… > [@Kimstu](#): > > Just because some men are horrible assholes to us doesn’t entitle us to be horrible assholes to half the human species in return. …is a succinct summary of the root of where I’m coming from. I want to take the time to say Thank You for pointing this out. Believe it or not, I rarely if **ever** hear this point being made. It’s usually the opposite. I also want to respond to this: > [@Kimstu](#): > > I and most other women encounter online evidence of genuine explicit hatred towards women from men all the time. I hear you, and I completely accept that this is true. But, men get hatred from women _all the time_ as well. It’s not a problem exclusive to one gender, but rather a consequence of our division _against_ each other. Look at it this way: you see constant, rampant evidence of hatred towards you that men are totally oblivious or insensitive towards. Isn’t it possible that the same is true _for both genders_? I like the first quote, but I like this rephrasing better “Just because some people are horrible assholes doesn’t entitle anyone to be horrible assholes in return.” Those men who go full asshole against women? _Just as bad_ as the women who go full asshole against men. It’s the same sin. Nobody gets a pass. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/290 "2021-03-22T02:38:44Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But what strikes me is that even if there are some men who are reacting that way to what they consider “explicit hatred”, aren’t these men being really fragile snowflakes in their overreaction? > [@Dangerosa](#): > > So what you guys are saying is that there are a whole bunch of men, on the verge of raping women, who will be pushed over the edge if women are too uppity? Maybe we should make this a serious proposal, I didn’t realize that the the sexual assault tendency was so common men just needed a small change in women’s behavior to push them over. What’s the matter, etasyde, can’t you take a joke? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/291 "2021-03-22T02:42:11Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > Those men who go full asshole against women? _Just as bad_ as the women who go full asshole against men. It’s the same sin. Nobody gets a pass. In practice, however, what generally gets referred to as “women going full asshole against men” usually boils down to some women not being careful enough with their qualifiers (“not all men”) when condemning male violence and harassment against women. “Men going full asshole against women”, on the other hand, tends to involve men openly identifying with explicitly misogynistic incel/MRA groups, harassing and threatening women online, and periodically “pulling an Elliot Rodger” and deliberately murdering women. Trying to present these different behaviors as “the same sin” is most definitely giving the male “assholes” more of “a pass” compared to the female “assholes”. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/292 "2021-03-22T03:11:41Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > What’s the matter, etasyde, can’t you take a joke? Yeah… I know… but I don’t think it’s intentional. I want to _believe_ it’s not intentional. > [@Kimstu](#): > > In practice, however, what generally gets referred to as “women going full asshole against men” usually boils down to some women not being careful enough with their qualifiers (“not all men”) when condemning male violence and harassment against women. I don’t know of any insult or verbal attack _more viscerally impactful_ than genuinely calling a man a rapist. I can’t think of a clever metaphore because it’s the equivalent of infinity - a direction, not a distance. Like… Hitler was an evil sack of shit, but at _least_ he wasn’t a _rapist_. So, casually and repeatedly reducing _every single person born with a penis_ to _an evil worse than Hitler_ is a pretty big thing, even if it doesn’t seem that way. > [@Kimstu](#): > > “Men going full asshole against women”, on the other hand, tends to involve men openly identifying with explicitly misogynistic incel/MRA groups And the reverse is also true. Women who are abused by assholes often join radical feminist groups that are explicitly misandric. Both genders are just people. They have more in common than they have differences. > [@Kimstu](#): > > harassing and threatening women online Men get the same harassment from angered women. Really, _people_ get harassed by angry people. It’s what angry, hateful people do. It’s wrong. I honestly think we can agree on that. > [@Kimstu](#): > > and periodically “pulling an Elliot Rodger” and deliberately murdering women. This is the danger, and why I’m saying lets not feed those groups. Let’s not make it _easy_ for them to recruit people. Let’s not provide fuel for their fire, so they can’t occasionally spit out an Elliot Rodger. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Trying to present these different behaviors as “the same sin” is most definitely giving the male “assholes” more of “a pass” compared to the female “assholes”. I will grant that there are far more Elliot Rodgers than female mass killers (there are _almost_ none). That’s a result of _the most violent_ men being more violent than _the most violent_ women. However, most of the species occupies a sane, healthy, and completely overlapping middle range. A fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent lie on the extreme edge. The smaller and less easy we make it for extremist groups, the less likely they can get their hands on Rodgers. But the other things? It’s a door that swings both ways. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/293 "2021-03-22T03:19:53Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > I don’t know of any insult or verbal attack _more viscerally impactful_ than genuinely calling a man a rapist. Can you point to any poster who suggested that you are a rapist? Because if so, I missed that. As I said above (perhaps my post was too long and people skipped it) the joke/satire, which some men here found offensive, doesn’t WORK unless you assume that most men AREN’T rapists, or dangerous at all. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/294 "2021-03-22T03:40:11Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > I can’t think of a clever metaphore because it’s the equivalent of infinity - a direction, not a distance. Like… Hitler was an evil sack of shit, but at _least_ he wasn’t a _rapist_ . What?!?? Do you seriously think that anyone is arguing that if Hitler had been a rapist instead of an evil racist genocidal dictator, that alternative would have been worse? I think you must be misinterpreting that. > [@etasyde](#): > > And the reverse is also true. Women who are abused by assholes often join radical feminist groups that are explicitly misandric. Again, this really comes across as a false equivalence between phenomena that are massively different in scope and impact. What are the “radical feminist groups” you’re talking about? How many women are actually in them, compared to the number of men in misogynist “manosphere” communities? > [@etasyde](#): > > Men get the same harassment from angered women. Do they? Do men get from women, for example, “the same harassment” that [Anita Sarkeesian got](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/oct/16/anita-sarkeesian-its-frustrating-to-be-known-as-the-woman-who-survived-gamergate) from men merely for politely pointing out some ways in which certain video game tropes involve sexist stereotypes? > [@](#): > > […] Anita Sarkeesian became the target for a staggeringly vicious online hate campaign after producing the online video series [Tropes vs Women in Video Games](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q). Given the scale of the harassment she has been experiencing non-stop for half a decade – including a continuous barrage of rape and death threats, a bomb scare and a game in which players can punch an image of her face […] You are making all these unsupported claims about “both sides” being basically equivalent, but you’re missing the central point. As [this essay on a recent study of gender and online harassment noted](https://time.com/3305466/male-female-harassment-online/), > [@](#): > > The study pointed out that the harassment targeted at men is not _because they are men_ , as is clearly more frequently the case with women. It’s defining because a lot of harassment is an effort to put women, because they are women, back in their “place.” […] > > Rape and death threats made by strangers […] coexist online with violent [sexist, racist](http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/in-getting-twitter-abuse-zelda-williams-is-hardly-alone/2014/08/14/b0449b1c-23e0-11e4-8593-da634b334390_story.html) commentary on Twitter, YouTube and Facebook and the sharing of gifs, images, jokes and memes depicting gross violence against women as “humor.” The “humor” can sometimes spill over into aggressive cyber mob attacks **,** which, as Citron explains in her book **,** disproportionately target women and people of color. These mobs include hundreds, sometimes thousands of people, systematically harassing their targets. […] Attacks on public figures like[Anita Sarkeesian](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZAxwsg9J9Q) or[Caroline Criado-Perez](http://weekwoman.wordpress.com/2014/05/11/twitter-optimised-for-abuse/) can take on surreal qualities whose effects can’t be underestimated—either on the individual attacked or on the environment. […] > > In theory, these things can happen to anyone— _but they don’t_ . They happen overwhelming[ly] to women and the abusers are overwhelmingly men. ---
**Author:** ![kitap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@kitap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitap)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/295 "2021-03-22T04:12:41Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > > [@kitap](#): > > > > Yeah, I pretty much already do this. It’s called being a female night auditor at an upscale resort. You’re describing about 20% of my interactions with guests. > > That’s terrible. Really, it is. I’ve worked customer service and been on the receiving end of _some_ abuse, but I haven’t had to deal with entitled rich jerks who want all the wrong things out of me so I can only speculate just how bad it was. Understand, I _do_ want that to change for you. You shouldn’t _have_ to deal with that. > > But my question to you (and anyone who’s looking for civil discussion) is how you feel about being treated that way. Would you, for instance, choose to interact with those 20% of people if it wasn’t your livelihood? Put another way, given no other incentive like pay or work requirements, would you freely choose those a-holes over the ones who aren’t jerks? And when they treat you that way, do you think more highly or less highly of them? About their beliefs? > > After a long day of work and having to deal with those people, is it not at least a minor relief to be able to join or read a discussion group that calls those people out for making you feel that way? I am mystified why you think we have a **choice**? Let me put it another way: when I go to work, I check where items are that I can use in self-defense if I have to (specifically our three hole punch; that thing is perfect for hitting someone with). Do you do that? The men at the front desk don’t. There have been times for safety reasons our security has to escort female employees to their cars. When is the last time your work did that for men? And only men? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/296 "2021-03-22T04:15:20Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > But, men get hatred from women _all the time_ as well. In my forty five years, I have never once been hated on by a woman simply for being a man. Not a single time. ---
**Author:** ![etasyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9f8e36/32.png) [@etasyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etasyde)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/297 "2021-03-22T05:03:40Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > What?!?? Do you seriously think that anyone is arguing that if Hitler had been a rapist instead of an evil racist genocidal dictator, that alternative would have been worse? I think you must be misinterpreting that. I said “visceral reaction” as in gut or emotional. I never said it was a _logical_ one. Certainly Hitler was objectively worse than your garden variety rapist (I mean, his actions caused the rape of untold thousands of women). But yes, on a _purely emotional level_ I’d much rather be thought of as a swastika tattoo’d Nazi than a rapist. I don’t know many men who wouldn’t agree. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Again, this really comes across as a false equivalence between phenomena that are massively different in scope and impact. What are the “radical feminist groups” you’re talking about? How many women are actually in them, compared to the number of men in misogynist “manosphere” communities? For starters, not every group labeled misogynist is actually misogynist - that’s an accusation that gets casually tossed around for virtually _any_ reason, to the point that the accusation itself has become meaningless. _Everything_ not explicitly feminist is considered misogynist by at least _someone_. That said, even groups that have a lot of verifiable misogyny aren’t made up of only misogynists. It’s usually just ordinary but desensitized people mixed up with enough radicals to taint the bunch. Many manosphere groups repudiate R.E. and everything he stood for. I can’t say “most” or not because I haven’t suffered “most” but when it happened, there was a lot of (unreported) backlash against him, what he preached, and what he did at least in the rather famous circles I peeked into. In fact, self-identified Incels are usually rejected by manosphere types as something disgusting to them, so far as I can see. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Do they? Do men get from women, for example, “the same harassment” that [Anita Sarkeesian got](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/oct/16/anita-sarkeesian-its-frustrating-to-be-known-as-the-woman-who-survived-gamergate) from men merely for politely pointing out some ways in which certain video game tropes involve sexist stereotypes? Anita Sarkeesian is not a good subject to delve into. Discussing gamergate and the issues with Sarkeesian is almost certainly a thread derailment. I’m not sure, but isn’t that issue one of the very few that are actually blacklisted? > [@kitap](#): > > I am mystified why you think we have a **choice**? You’re missing my question. I never asserted that you can avoid those 20%, I asked you _if you had the choice_, would you choose them over someone who wasn’t an asshole? > [@kitap](#): > > Do you do that? The men at the front desk don’t. There have been times for safety reasons our security has to escort female employees to their cars. When is the last time your work did that for men? And only men? Yes, I do that - at home and at work. Have done that since I was a small child (until recently, I always slept armed and I still keep weapons in my room, just not _on the bed_). T’wasn’t a good environment, lets leave it at that. Now, I can’t speak for the mindset of other men, but I can say that while I don’t assume everyone is going to randomly try to kill me, I am conscious of behavior that indicates danger and prepared to defend myself if I have to. No one else _will_ come to my defense. As for escorts, we escort anyone who asks for escort. Men generally don’t ask because, presumably, they expect to defend themselves or don’t want to appear weak and invite the dangers _that_ entails. In the past few years, we’ve had two escort requests: one after a certifiable loon made a scene because he was refused to be hired (the target of harassment was female, but the harassment was entirely based on him being a pushy “hire me now” weirdo and had nothing to do with sex) and another time because the lights were broken (and it was pitch black in the parking lot). That was also a woman. The men expressed fear, but went into the lot. > [@Miller](#): > > In my forty five years, I have never once been hated on by a woman simply for being a man. Not a single time. I’m happy for you! It would be nice if I could say the same, but I can’t. Might be our age difference, might be where we live, you might have had a better childhood, I don’t know. But, honestly, it’s a good thing not everyone has this experience. Unfortunately, I know too many who _do_. * * * But look, if it’s truly accepted that calling all men rapists is wrong, and it’s accepted that treating people like shit causes them to drift towards people who don’t, then I’d rather have the conversation about sexual violence (without the sexism) than argue every possible thing that divides men and women. I’m not comfortable with how much of a derailment I’ve been involved with. Can we, perhaps, narrow this down to the hypothetical? > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Can you point to any poster who suggested that you are a rapist? Because if so, I missed that. > > As I said above (perhaps my post was too long and people skipped it) the joke/satire, which some men here found offensive, doesn’t WORK unless you assume that most men AREN’T rapists, or dangerous at all. The joke doesn’t work for a myriad of reasons. The most critical reason is that the hypothetical is _completely_ non-analogous. To _be_ analogous, it requires that men be considered rapists. That’s the suppressed premise, and that’s where the problem arose. If men _aren’t_ rapists, then it should come as no shock that treating them like rapists meets opposition. The contention then isn’t “how dare you impose limits on a man’s freedom” but “how dare you treat men like monsters without justification.” So it falls apart. The hypothetical doesn’t suggest women should protect men. It suggests women should protect _other women_ by imposing draconian laws against them. Even if I accept that the advice to have backup is misguided, you can’t equate suggesting that someone keep someone around to protect them to locking up half the population. Now, if men _are_ all rapists, then it makes sense! Imagine actually locking those monsters up! How marvelous to put those subhumans where they belong! But we can’t, because even though it’s better than they deserve, they’d never allow us. Hah, just think of how mad they would be! _That’s_ why its problematic. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/298 "2021-03-22T06:39:20Z")
_ **Moderating** _ And _my_ point was to drop the immigration hijack. This is a warning for ignoring mod instructions. Don’t post in this thread again. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/299 "2021-03-22T06:57:34Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > Now, if men _are_ all rapists, then it makes sense! Imagine actually locking those monsters up! How marvelous to put those subhumans where they belong! But we can’t, because even though it’s better than they deserve, they’d never allow us. Hah, just think of how mad they would be! No, that’s not the point. The point is that the hypothetical would restrict all men, including the innocent ones. Just like we restrict innocent women. Literally no one thinks that all men are rapists.\* \*\* It’s a big world. By “no one” i mean an inconsequential number of people. I actually know a woman with a mother who kinda believed that, and she says it really messed her up. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/300 "2021-03-22T07:38:32Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > But, men get hatred from women _all the time_ as well. No, they don’t. What they get is pushback. _Not_ the same thing. > [@etasyde](#): > > I don’t know of any insult or verbal attack _more viscerally impactful_ than genuinely calling a man a rapist. Really? Can’t think of _any_ similar insult? Try calling a straight man a homosexual. Or any man a paedophile. > [@etasyde](#): > > However, most of the species occupies a sane, healthy, and completely overlapping middle range. The rape stats say different. > [@Miller](#): > > In my forty five years, I have never once been hated on by a woman simply for being a man. Not a single time. Same. > [@etasyde](#): > > Discussing gamergate and the issues with Sarkeesian is almost certainly a thread derailment. I’m not sure, but isn’t that issue one of the very few that are actually blacklisted? Gamergate? Not that I can see. _Starting a pro-advocacy thread_ is, according to the rules. But _mentioning_ Gamergate doesn’t seem to be explicitly banned AFAICT. A mod could clarify (@raventhief ?) , but I think if it’s something of relevance (and the _response_ to her is definitely of relevance in discussing toxic masculinity) then it should be OK as long as it’s not a complete hijack of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2021, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/301 "2021-03-22T09:06:36Z")
> [@etasyde](#): > > I’m happy for you! It would be nice if I could say the same, but I can’t. Might be our age difference, might be where we live, you might have had a better childhood, I don’t know. But, honestly, it’s a good thing not everyone has this experience. Unfortunately, I know too many who _do_ . So, given your problem with inaccurate generalizations, maybe you should avoid saying that gender discrimination is something that happens to men “all the time.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953.md?page=16)