# UK Green party peer suggests 6 pm curfew for men **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 15, 2021, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953 "2021-03-15T20:19:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/61 "2021-03-17T12:15:25Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > more likely to commit rape (about 1 in every 20-30 men) I have never heard a figure that low. Even the (often criticized) Lisak study came out at 6.5%. Others can go as high as 15%, and that’s not even considering studies elsewhere in the world that can have figures as high as 25% or more. And that’s just figures for rapists. You then have to factor in the number of victims each rapist can have. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/62 "2021-03-17T12:32:45Z")
Well, right. The typical rapist/thief/drunk driver commits multiple crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/63 "2021-03-17T12:50:51Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I have never heard a figure that low. Even the (often criticized) Lisak study came out at 6.5%. Others can go as high as 15%, and that’s not even considering studies elsewhere in the world that can have figures as high as 25% or more. are you saying that 1 in 4 men are rapists? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/64 "2021-03-17T12:57:11Z")
I’m saying it varies, and there are places where that is the case. Usually active or recent conflict zones but also just crappy places for gender relations. Asia and Africa and South America feature a lot. If I _were_ to thumbsuck a global average, it would _not_ be 1 in 30, though. More like 1 in 10 at a minimum. You can find valid research that covers that whole spread, but it’s all very debatable. What I _haven’t_ personally seen is anything as low as 1 in 30, which was why I posted. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/65 "2021-03-17T12:58:38Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What I _haven’t_ personally seen is anything as low as 1 in 30, which was why I posted. What have you personally seen that leads you to calculate any figure? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/66 "2021-03-17T13:00:26Z")
A bunch of studies. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/67 "2021-03-17T13:01:28Z")
do you have a link to any? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/68 "2021-03-17T13:17:39Z")
I’ve already mentioned the Lisak study for the low end. For the highest ends, there’s studies like the [UN Asia/Pacific one](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS2214-109X(13)70069-X/fulltext) and [South African](https://genderjustice.org.za/news-item/mrc-study-28-of-men-admit-to-rape/) one. The specific 15% figure I mentioned, I haven’t seen the actual study, it was just mentioned somewhere to contrast the Lisak one, I think the RAINN site or similar. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/69 "2021-03-17T13:36:31Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Indeed. And if women do out they are told they need to be constantly vigilant - never go out without a friend, always watch your drink, always be on your guard when someone comes up to you, have your head on a swivel when walking to your car, have your keys in your hand in case you have to get in your car quickly, etc. Things as a man I’ve never had to consider. I find these threads odd because I don’t think of myself as a particularly skittish individual, but growing up (in New York City) when I became old enough to go places alone, I was constantly aware of and considering all of these things (except watching my drink, which was not an issue even as I became of drinking/bar-going age). I was constantly evaluating (and encouraged to evaluate) threats from strangers and to be “constantly vigilant.” – empty streets, subway cars, parking lots, etc. were a constant concern. I’m not sure it was rational (and it certainly lead to a level of instinctive racism that was inappropriate), but it was pressed upon me from a young age that I was constantly at risk of street violence and needed to constantly be aware of these things. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/70 "2021-03-17T13:55:35Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > growing up (in New York City) Was it the 70s? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/71 "2021-03-17T13:58:28Z")
Here’s a link to the [actual South African report](https://www.samrc.ac.za/sites/default/files/attachments/2016-07-08/violence_hiv.pdf), not just a secondhand one. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/72 "2021-03-17T13:58:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’ve already mentioned the Lisak study for the low end. For the highest ends, there’s studies like the [UN Asia/Pacific one](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS2214-109X(13)70069-X/fulltext) and [South African](https://genderjustice.org.za/news-item/mrc-study-28-of-men-admit-to-rape/) one. The specific 15% figure I mentioned, I haven’t seen the actual study, it was just mentioned somewhere to contrast the Lisak one, I think the RAINN site or similar. Thanks for that, I wouldn’t be in the least bit surprised to see massive cultural swings in the rates seeing as what is considered acceptable treatment of women has a huge cultural component to it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/73 "2021-03-17T14:04:25Z")
_Some_ swings, yes. South Africa is the rapiest non-active-warzone country in the world. But even European and US studies are not in the 1 in 30 range. Unless [college-going men](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2375127?resultClick=3) are several orders of magnitude more likely to rape, the only conclusion that satisfies me is that it’s more prevalent than 1 in 30 or even 1 in 20. And knowing what I know about the under-reporting of rape, and the prevalence of rape culture in general, finding out it’s _actually_ as high as 15% would not exactly surprise me. But I’m happy sticking with 10% as a floor. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/74 "2021-03-17T14:07:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Was it the 70s? mid-to-late 90s. Although my parents moved to NYC in the mid-70s, which may have influenced their view of the city. One thing that I have noticed as a late-30s suburbanite is that I no longer do any of the “high risk” activities – like leave the house at night – and so my view on what those things are like is based on my life 15 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/75 "2021-03-17T14:12:17Z")
Weird thing is, I’m a male who _has_ been raped, and I live in World Rape Central (and not too shabby on the armed robbery and violence either) and yet I’ve not had that mindset. I think it’s because here, it’s not _really_ the city that’s that dangerous, it’s the townships. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/76 "2021-03-17T14:13:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > several orders of magnitude more likely I fucked that up. I mean several _times_ more likely. I had “an order of magnitude difference” on the brain comparing 1-in-30 and 28% ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/77 "2021-03-17T14:21:00Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > Who is telling women not to go out at night? I’ve had a male friend literally block the door when I was trying to walk the 10 minute route home at 2am on New Year, until I agreed to get driven by another friend (who actually just drove me out of sight and let me out at my request, as I lived in a maze of dead-end roads, but there was a straight footpath). I was 30 and working as a bouncer at the time. The same friend, incidentally, had no qualms whatsoever about a guy walking home over an hour away across the city at the end of the previous year’s party. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/78 "2021-03-17T15:03:24Z")
> [@mmmiiikkkeee](#): > > what I see being described as common advice to all women simply isn’t so anywhere I’ve lived We’re getting handed it in this very thread. And you’re apparently handing it out in this very post. > [@mmmiiikkkeee](#): > > Are there actually people here who think it would be good to NOT tell women how to stay safe? You can’t see it? And while I’m at it: It would be good to stop telling us stuff that isn’t true, and that if believed screws up our lives. I proceed to repeat myself: > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > That “advice” does put a burden on women. Try following it yourself for a year or seventy and see if you don’t feel burdened by it. > > And that advice is also just plain wrong. Women get raped at home, in our own beds; get raped whatever we’re wearing; get raped by the people we’re told to trust to protect us from rapists. We’ve had multiple threads here in which people provided multiple cites for all of this, and the people pushing the sort of “advice” you’re pushing were challenged to provide cites that such advice worked and produced nothing whatsoever. > [@Bootb](#): > > So liberals take a look at the situation, and decide that they want to fight the battle in a fake, idealized world that doesn’t actually exist. That’s why they get so upset about things like suggestions that women should not go out alone. > > Conservatives, on the other hand, fight the battle in the real world. I wish the people currently calling themselves conservatives would do that in regards to covid-19 and accepting the results of elections. That’s not entirely a digression; I’ve been running into that ‘liberals don’t want to live in the real world!’ claim for most of my life, while it generally seems to me that it’s liberals who are trying to deal with the real world and most conservatives who keep insisting that the world ought to be a certain way and people should be forced to pretend that it is, that regulations or the lack of them should be designed as if it were, and so on. But this is rather a digression. > [@Bootb](#): > > Sure, it’s well and good and nice to try to get men to shape up, and start behaving better. But what happens when that line of defense breaks down? And living in this imperfect world, filled with imperfect people, with humans being what they are, it **will** break down, whether deliberately or by accident. > > Thus the need for at least one other line of defense. That can take several different forms–advising women to go out in pairs, or to carry a weapon, or to refrain from getting drunk, or any other number of things. I travelled all around the USA, in my twenties, alone; and no I did not carry a gun, and I drank or got stoned if I felt like it. I live alone. I am not going to be required to either stay locked up at home or hire an escort because you happen to think that’s great advice. How about you start advising men to never go out alone instead, telling men in general that they need to bring with them their mothers or daughters or at least someone they trust to stop them from committing rape or assault; and if no such person is handy or feels like going with them then they should just stay home? And yes, I would have been, and I will be, outraged if I got or get attacked. Because it is outrageous that people do that, and more so when it’s assumed that it’s just something that normally happens; and because it happens more often when people assume that it’s just something that normally happens. It needs to be treated as outrageous behavior, by men as well as by women, by conservatives as well as by liberals. And yes, I am entirely aware that even if we can get everybody outraged at the rapists and the harassers, at least in their public noises, there will still be rapists and harassers; and that part of the reason I haven’t been raped (I have been harassed) is pure luck. But there won’t be as many rapes, and there’ll be a whole lot less casual harassment, and maybe, just possibly, people will stop telling women we mustn’t step outside the door without an escort. > [@Falchion](#): > > I find these threads odd because I don’t think of myself as a particularly skittish individual, but growing up (in New York City) when I became old enough to go places alone, I was constantly aware of and considering all of these things (except watching my drink, which was not an issue even as I became of drinking/bar-going age). I was constantly evaluating (and encouraged to evaluate) threats from strangers and to be “constantly vigilant.” – empty streets, subway cars, parking lots, etc. were a constant concern. I’m not sure it was rational (and it certainly lead to a level of instinctive racism that was inappropriate), but it was pressed upon me from a young age that I was constantly at risk of street violence and needed to constantly be aware of these things I don’t know if you’re male; but if what you’re saying is that some men also get these warnings, yes, that’s true. Men living in genuinely hazardous places, and boys living in places that their parents perceive as hazardous even if the places aren’t, may well get them. But there is no general society-wide advice for men to never go outside their homes without a guardian. > [@Falchion](#): > > mid-to-late 90s. Although my parents moved to NYC in the mid-70s, which may have influenced their view of the city. One thing that I have noticed as a late-30s suburbanite is that I no longer do any of the “high risk” activities – like leave the house at night Gets dark around here about 4:30 PM, for two months in the winter. Most people can’t even get to and from a standard shift job without leaving the house in the dark. And while you may not, most people like to occasionally go out to dinner, to a movie, to visit friends in the evening. Or need to be able to take a swing shift or night shift job. Or just plain like to walk in the dark and look at the sky. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/79 "2021-03-17T15:10:01Z")
It is difficult to know how to compare national statistics because the classification of crime varies so much. Sweden has a famously broad definition of sexual assault (this was highlighted by the case against Julian Assange) that suggests the levels of sexual crime are very high. Yet it is a society where social and welfare policy is very high on the political agenda. > **[How do Sweden’s rape statistics compare to Europe?](https://www.thelocal.se/20201006/how-do-swedens-rape-statistics-compare-to-europe/)** > > Sweden has more reported rapes per capita than many other countries, but inconsistencies in reporting rates and the way that crimes of sexual violence are recorded mean that it's hard to interpret the figures. In other countries serious cases maybe under recorded. Given such variations in reporting standards, it is very easy to cherry pick official figures to make any point you wish. The media is also full of surveys of questionable quality that make for shocking headlines. We get a lot of this in the British media, it is famously sensationalist. But that is often a reflection of the readership who, sitting secure in a comfortable home, like nothing better than the vicarious thrill from stories about a world full of desperate life and death dramas. Nonetheless, when truly shocking incidents occur, this sometimes leads to long term changes to policies. Will this rape and murder by a policeman lead to institutional changes and steps to change and unhealthy attitude towards women in the very male dominated police culture? Conservative institutions like the police are usually a generation behind the rest of society. Will this crime will become a ‘cause celebre’ to encourage systemic change? Maybe. But at the moment the debate is going from attention on the inner workings of the police as an institution to how to deal with the many forms of gender based violence, the law and public safety issues. Lots of agendas and grandstanding a consequent loss of focus. When the case comes to court and we learn the facts and the story behind this horrible crime, that may change. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/80 "2021-03-17T15:39:08Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I don’t know if you’re male; but if what you’re saying is that some men also get these warnings, yes, that’s true. Men living in genuinely hazardous places, and boys living in places that their parents perceive as hazardous even if the places aren’t, may well get them. But there is no general society-wide advice for men to never go outside their homes without a guardian. I’m not sure I think there is a “general society-wide advice” for women to “never go outside their homes without a guardian.” But my wonder is that I regularly see in these threads that males are never told to worry about their personal safety or exercise constant vigilance in public (and the post I quoted listed several examples of things that males don’t worry about), and that’s just not my personal experience (as a male) where it was drilled into me and my peers (and where I did, in fact, walk about vigilant and anxious). It doesn’t make the advice better or worse, I’m just surprised that it was apparently unusual. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Gets dark around here about 4:30 PM, for two months in the winter. Most people can’t even get to and from a standard shift job without leaving the house in the dark. > > And while you may not, most people like to occasionally go out to dinner, to a movie, to visit friends in the evening. Or need to be able to take a swing shift or night shift job. > > Or just plain like to walk in the dark and look at the sky. Well, that example was a little flippant. My point was that the list things that I was supposed to be wary while doing (walking alone on the street at night, walking with others on the street at night, taking public transportation, going to bars, drinking in public places, etc.) aren’t part of my life anymore. But, if asked about them, I would think back to when they were things that I did… which was in a different place at a different time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953.md?page=5)