# UK Green party peer suggests 6 pm curfew for men **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 15, 2021, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953 "2021-03-15T20:19:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/121 "2021-03-18T15:32:03Z")
Question for those who say that language like “men are responsible for violence against women” or “men need to do more to stop violence against women” is hurtful and unhelpful because you are included in the group “men” and you feel unfairly stigmatised: How would you feel about “people are responsible for violence against women” or “people need to do more to stop violence against women”? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/122 "2021-03-18T15:34:22Z")
Thank you @Stanislaus - I find very much to agree with in your reply ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/123 "2021-03-18T15:35:53Z")
Although in the same way all white people are racist, all men are misogynist - its simply built into our society. And its built in for both men and women. Men expect that their feelings will be catered to. Women are raised to cater to those feelings. Its women’s societal role to make life easier for men - from your mom making sure you have clean laundry to your wife sticking your stuff in her purse. And its certainly built into the theory that a woman’s appearance is responsible for a man’s behavior - which is in everything from “if she didn’t want attention, she shouldn’t dress that way” to “girls shouldn’t wear a top with straps to school because boys will be distracted by SHOULDERS.” Here is the thing…I’m not responsible for protecting your feelings. If you are so delicate that facing the simple fact that the majority of violence women experience is perpetrated by men upsets you, and that I need to be very careful not to hurt your specific feelings while stating that, that’s sort of a you problem, not a me problem. If you want to turn every one of these conversations into a discussion about how much it hurts YOU that men kill and rape women, you are part of the problem. You are taking space up to turn what is a real actual problem that kills women into a issue about your own ego. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/124 "2021-03-18T15:36:33Z")
“All lives matter.” ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/125 "2021-03-18T15:39:28Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > OR - and this is just a crazy suggestion - anyone bothered by unqualified references to “men” could recognize that not everything is about them and their feelings, and that even if they are genuinely not part of the problem there is a very real issue caused by a disturbingly large percentage of men that ought to be a higher priority to them than having their insecurities assuaged. I’d say that an unqualified reference to “men” would tend to be about you, if you are a man. I mean, that’s at the root of this topic - a proposal for a curfew for ‘men’ - when it’s not specific, it’s general. I don’t have a problem with people (including me) getting their feelings bruised as a side effect, following the pursuit of action on a goal that prevents a greater harm, but I’m not sure that’s what I’m seeing here. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/126 "2021-03-18T15:46:41Z")
I know exactly what you mean: I’m not suggesting this would be a good change in how we speak of these things, just trying to explore why the “men are responsible” language provokes such feelings. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/127 "2021-03-18T15:53:25Z")
To some extent, for women, its because we’ve borne so much of the responsibility for violence to ourselves already - and feel done. We are the ones not walking to our cars alone after dark, screening our dates and making sure they don’t know where we live for the first few meetings, dressing conservatively if we don’t want to be verbally assaulted (and these things don’t always work). We are the ones trying to keep ahead of an abusive boyfriend, to learn his triggers and not trigger him. We’ve been taking responsibility for the violence done to us. And - done. And it isn’t just violence. We are told we should restrict abortions, because being pregnant is just an “inconvenience” and after all, a life is at stake. We’ve left the workforce in huge numbers because someone needs to take care of children while they go to virtual school and its usually us - but even just suggest as a thought experiment that men should be inconvenienced by their gender to protect other human beings, and this happens. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/128 "2021-03-18T16:04:19Z")
How do you feel about an unqualified reference to “people”? You are after all a person. But I’ll bet you don’t, no pun intended, take it as personally as an unqualified reference to “men”. If that’s right, what’s the difference? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/129 "2021-03-18T16:07:32Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > Question for those who say that language like “men are responsible for violence against women” or “men need to do more to stop violence against women” is hurtful and unhelpful because you are included in the group “men” and you feel unfairly stigmatised: > > How would you feel about “people are responsible for violence against women” or “people need to do more to stop violence against women”? I guess it just appears to me like it’s misattribution of the problem, and that seems a bad place to begin in solving any problem. It may well be that the phenomenon being discussed here (specifically males attacking females outdoors at night) is sufficiently distinct that it requires different considerations and actions to the more general phenomenon of _people_ hurting _people_ but there’s just something wrong about the attribution of the actions of a relatively small subset of a group to the whole group. It’s not _as_ wrong as attribution of the blame to the victims, but it’s still not right. > [@Stanislaus](#): > > How do you feel about an unqualified reference to “people”? You are after all a person. But I’ll bet you don’t, no pun intended, take it as personally as an unqualified reference to “men”. If that’s right, what’s the difference? I don’t know - that’s an interesting question, because I think it illustrates that the larger and more inappropriate a group you attribute a property of a small subset of that group, the less relevant it becomes, but ‘men’ is divisive in a way that ‘people’ is not. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/130 "2021-03-18T16:14:58Z")
I guess, to put it another way, if it was the case that there was something inherent in the ownership of a Y chromosome that meant, quite randomly and against any possible care or precaution I could take, I might wake up tomorrow and be compelled to commit an act of violence upon someone with two X chromosomes, I would be content to be labelled as part of ‘that group that hurts women’. It would be a fully appropriate definition of the group. it would be the correct diagnosis of the problem. But I don’t believe it is. Of course it’s not easy to identify what the actual grouping is in advance of the symptom, but it’s not ‘men’. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/131 "2021-03-18T16:15:27Z")
It might just make a few\* of those men stop and think _why_ their fee-fees are more important than true allyship, and maybe work to change that absolutely unnecessary knee-jerk reaction? Atwood was ever so right when she said “ Men are afraid that women will laugh at them . Women are afraid that men will kill them .” \* it will, alas, only ever be a few, that’s screamingly obvious just from this thread alone. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/132 "2021-03-18T16:27:04Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > I know exactly what you mean: I’m not suggesting this would be a good change in how we speak of these things, just trying to explore why the “men are responsible” language provokes such feelings. The reason for the pushback seems pretty understandable to me. Take the statement “The majority of crime X is perpetrated by identifiable group Y” This can be demonstrated to be true for a variety of X and Y. Now take the follow up statements that “group Y are the problem” or “group Y have to change their behaviour” How comfortable would any of us be with applying such simplistic broad-brush statements for various “Y” groups. Have a go, insert a group and crime of your choice and see how it sounds to you. There is nothing wrong in acknowledging the fact that most violent crime is perpetrated by men. That’s undeniable. But it takes no extra effort to avoid a blanket “guilt by association” accusation against fully half the population. A suitable question would be “what is it about society that produces a higher rate of violence in males?”. It is a less emotive way of phrasing an important question and I think it should be phrased that way not simply to spare anyone’s feelings, but to make it easier to have the important conversations. Bald, broad statements that are easily interpreted as painting _all_ men as actual perpetrators, perpetrators in waiting or sharing some collective guilt seem far more likely to provoke a defensive reaction and shut down conversation. It is possible to talk about this in a way that acknowledges the realities of the situation whilst not alienating a fair chunk of those you need to reach. We seem fully capable and willing of moderating what we say in other circumstances for exactly those reasons and see no reason to avoid doing so on this topic. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/133 "2021-03-18T16:30:09Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > We seem fully capable and willing of moderating what we say in other circumstances for exactly those reasons and see no reason to avoid doing so on this topic. Indeed - in most other contexts, we would identify it as a hasty generalisation. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/134 "2021-03-18T16:31:52Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > As a provocative thought experiment, I think it serves its purpose. Indeed. > [@Mangetout](#): > > As a man, I don’t want to be subject to a curfew imposed to try to control people who are not me Nobody’s making that a serious suggestion. Everybody who’s suggested it is indeed doing it as a provocative thought experiment. And, as a woman, I don’t want to be subject to curfews, even unofficial curfews, imposed or recommended to try to control people who are not me. > [@Mangetout](#): > > I don’t feel that as a man, I bear any more responsibility than any other member of society (male or female) for the problem of violence. If I could fix it, I would love to do that, but I don’t know how to fix it, and at the same time, I feel like there are those with the view that the violence is somewhat my fault, any my responsibility, by association of sex. You’re reading that into statements that don’t contain it. Nobody (well, possibly not nobody, see Internet, but no significant number of people) is saying that you’re personally responsible for violence that you neither committed nor encouraged, simply because you share a gender with people who do. What people are saying is that if we’re going to shut up at home an entire category of people solely because of their gender, it would make more sense to shut up the group that contains the people causing most of the specific problem that’s given as the reason for shutting up the group that causes less of the specific problem. > [@DrDeth](#): > > In fact that thread does not do that It’s the phrasing of that thread title which does that. > [@etasyde](#): > > look at their options - they can side with a group that goes on television saying they were born racist monsters and deserve no sympathy or they can side with the group that says “hey we understand your pain and respect you as a person.” WTH?? That’s a really strange set of choices you’re claiming are the only ones on offer. It’s like saying you can only get a job as a hit man or as a trafficked unwilling sex worker catering to customers who like genuine rape, and there are no other choices out there. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > It is possible to talk about this in a way that acknowledges the realities of the situation whilst not alienating a fair chunk of those you need to reach. I’m not at all sure that it is. Because it seems to me that there’s a fair chunk of those we need to reach who react negatively to _any_ discussion of the situation that amounts to anything other than ‘yes, it’s terrible that women get raped, here are a list of things (which don’t work and are restrictive) that women should do to avoid that.’ ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/135 "2021-03-18T16:38:56Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I’m not at all sure that it is. > > Because it seems to me that there’s a fair chunk of those we need to reach who react negatively to _any_ discussion of the situation that amounts to anything other than ‘yes, it’s terrible that women get raped, here are a list of things (which don’t work and are restrictive) that women should do to avoid that.’ OK, change my statement to > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > It is possible to talk about this in a way that acknowledges the realities of the situation whilst not alienating a fair chunk of those you need to, **and could potentially** , reach. I agree some are a lost cause and no amount of careful language will reach them but there still remains a non-negligible amount who will be amenable. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/136 "2021-03-18T16:41:20Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > there still remains a non-negligible amount who will be amenable. _Are_ there, though? Because it’s also possible all the amenable men, the ones _not_ #notallmen-ing threads about violence against women, have already been won over, and only the recalcitrant are left. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/137 "2021-03-18T16:47:47Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > I get a number of warnings about crime in the course of my life–warnings from financial institutions and technology firms about confidence schemes, when I used to travel pre-covid the State Department has write ups on many countries warning about common criminal activities in those countries and how to avoid them etc. > > These are very specific situations. What advice have you been given about every time you step out the door in your own country for the rest of your life? > > There’s been a lot of outrage in the UK about this in the wake of Sarah Everard’s murder. Most of it putting it better than I can. Here’s [some](https://twitter.com/KateEMcCann/status/1369682439531036678?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1369777573190922244%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es3_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fuk-news%2F2021%2Fmar%2F11%2Fsarah-everard-hundreds-women-fear-walking-alone): > > > What happened to Sarah Everard has hit home hard for so many women because we make the calculations she did every day too. We take the longer, better-lit route, push the fear aside for the voice that says ‘don’t be daft, you’ve every right to walk home alone at night and be safe’. > > Tell friends ‘it’s fine, it’s just around the corner, I’ll text when I’m back’ …but still we make a plan - Keys gripped between fingers we map the corner shops we could duck into en-route. Swap shoes for trainers in case we need to run. Keep our music low or turned off. > > Even being on the phone has downsides. One eye is always on the person in front or behind - would they help me, might they be a threat? Should I cross the road, would that make it worse? Are there lights on in any of these houses if I need to pretend this is where I live? > > You’re a grown woman and in no other area of your life do you feel so vulnerable. You resent it even though you understand there is a risk - however small. It is frustrating and tiring and constant. And yet sometimes, despite all those calculations, it still isn’t enough. > > Speaking for myself, I’ve never thought about making sure I had shoes I could break into a sprint in, I’ve never given people my proposed route home so they know where to find my murdered corpse, I’ve never ostentatiously started a phone-call in a cab so the driver knows someone knows I’m in his car, I’ve never thrown away a drink because I turned my head for 30 seconds, I’ve never got out of a cab two blocks from my home so some stranger doesn’t know my address… > > Women do this shit all the time, as a routine. And expect to do it for the rest of their lives. And that’s a terrible thing. I’m not sure anyone said otherwise. > [@SanVito](#): > > And yet they do nothing to solve the problem do they? I know you’re going to come back with a ‘not all men’ argument, but given that the vast majority of women have, a number of times in their lives, been harassed, groped, verbally abused or followed just because they are women, then there’s an awful lot of men who don’t know when their behaviour crosses a line into being inappropriate, abusive and frightening, even if they don’t realise it. So perhaps we could at least start with educating boys about how to behave with some civil responsibility. No, but I also don’t believe there are easy solutions for solving violent crime. I think most of them start with early intervention in troubled homes and better efforts to make sure children are properly socialized. I think we probably need a “finer tuned” social services arm of our governments (and that will require more money), right now the broad principle is “keep children with their parents except as a last resort”, but I think we need a better standard. It should be “keep children with troubled parents who have problems that we can manage while keeping their children with them, but keep children away from parents that we know are doing things that put the children at risk of violence and learning improper norms about violence, until such time as those parents can reach a point where they do not behave that way any longer.” The reality is of course many more parents would more quickly and permanently lose custody of their children. > [@Kimstu](#): > > > [@casdave](#): > > > > So why isn’t there some national outcry about protecting men - who are much more likely to suffer violence, injury and death > > As has been pointed out, instituting a curfew for men would protect many men from the violence, injury and death inflicted on them by other men. > > You should be grateful that we’re looking out for your safety! > > (As has also been repeatedly pointed out, none of these hypotheticals are being proposed seriously or are considered in any way realistic to implement. It’s a thought experiment trying to get men in particular to see the burdens that are being placed on women by expectations that they must restrict their activities to protect their own safety.) I think everyone gets it was only intended as a thought experiment, but for thought experiments to be useful they should have some logical consistency, which this one does not. Women feel unsafe going out on their own because of societal issues, so as a thought experiment imagine if the government said men couldn’t go out after a certain hour or face arrest…what? ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/138 "2021-03-18T16:49:53Z")
Three times from memory in which I have contributed to the problem of women feeling unsafe to be out in public: 2001: Late night on a Jubilee line Tube between St John’s Wood and Kilburn. There are only 3 people in the carriage - me, another guy, a woman. He is harassing her by not taking no for an answer. “Why won’t you go for a drink with me?” “Where do you live?” “I’ll come home with you”. He’s getting in her personal space. She is monosyllabic, defensive body language, no eye contact. I try making eye contact with her and asking if she’s alright, mouthing it behind her back. She doesn’t respond to me - I suppose because she’s got no reason to trust me. Regardless, she’s obviously not alright. I should tell the guy to leave her alone, that she’s clearly not interested. But I don’t. Because I’m scared of provoking him too. Because I don’t feel he’ll accept that I have the moral authority to tell him he’s wrong. Because I know I should but I don’t feel I _have_ to. It gets to my stop and I get off, leaving her with him. No idea what happened after that. 1. Something big is being delivered to my house. It’s daylight. As the delivery guy is unloading a lone woman walks past. He puts down the parcel, steps direclty into her path, looms down (he’s a big guy) and barks “Smile!”. She steps round him unsmiling and carries on her way. I know women find this fucking annoying and seeing it up close makes it obvious that it was nothing to do with her smiling, just a way for him to impose himself on her in a domineering and unpleasant fashion. I could tell him all of this and suggest that he learns to leave women alone, but I don’t. He’s a lot bigger than me, he’s carrying something I want, and I don’t know if I can carry through the argument that would result. 2004 - After work drinks on a summer Friday evening. I’m stuck at a table with my manager and a few other more senior men. The talk turns to the new intern intake and which of the women you would invite to your notional hot tub. (The rule is 5 max). Some women can overhear this conversation among the men they have to work late with and go on business trips with. I don’t join in the conversation because eeww but I don’t tell them to grow the fuck up either, or suggest changing the subject, or anything else. I’m not the perpetrator in these cases but it’s also obvious that I’m letting it carry on. There’s no neutrality between the oppressor and the oppressed. It doesn’t matter that I might feel bad about not doing anything - it’s functionally no different from if I were silently cheering these arseholes on. Now, maybe I’m the only man in this thread whose ever been in this kind of position - where a man or men were making a woman feel uncomfortable and not saying or doing anything. Maybe you’re all moral paragons who have spoken up each and every time at whatever cost in which case, in all seriousness, bravo. But I’m not the only man who has ever stood silently by. Do I not have a responsibility to speak up? Can I really look back at these incidents and say “nothing to do with me guv”? Where’s the public campaign telling men to speak up against harassment? Where’s the social pressure to not laugh off your mate who annoys the waitress when he gets pissed? Where’s the backing for men to tell other men when they’re crossing the line? If a female friend told you that one of your male friends who you otherwise had no negative vibes from at all had made her feel really uncomfortable when they shared a cab, what would you feel obliged to do? What if it were two female friends, or 5, or 10? Would you quietly drop him from your social circle without saying why? Would you have a word with him about his behaviour round women? Would you tell other women not to be alone with him? Would you tell your male friends to steer clear? I don’t harass or assault women. But do I do everything I can to help women feel safe about being out in public? Can’t honestly say I do. Don’t think it’s just me. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/139 "2021-03-18T16:51:57Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Women feel unsafe going out on their own because of societal issues, so as a thought experiment imagine if the government said men couldn’t go out after a certain hour or face arrest…what? That’s not the argument at all. The argument is that women are constantly “advised” not to go out on their own or do other normal activities because of the likelihood of male violence against them. So as a thought experiment, imagine if instead it was men who were constantly being “advised”, or even forced, not to go out on their own, in order to address this problem. Yes, that’s a logically consistent argument. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/140 "2021-03-18T16:56:23Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > I get the reasoning behind the “thought experiment”, but having an understanding of the scale of the problem would help. What percentage of British men are committing violent crimes against women? > > I don’t think you get the reasoning at all. Women in general – all women – are very often told that we mustn’t go out at night, mustn’t go to particular places, mustn’t wear particular clothes, mustn’t move in particular fashions, because if we do it supposedly increases our chances of being raped. Responding to that by telling men in general that they mustn’t go out at night is meant to point up the problems with that. > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > I think that’s probably a difference in perspective. My perspective is none of those things is putting the “burden” on women. I view those things as “advice” > > Your “perspective” on that is just plain wrong. > > That “advice” does put a burden on women. Try following it yourself for a year or seventy and see if you don’t feel burdened by it. > > And that advice is also just plain wrong. Women get raped at home, in our own beds; get raped whatever we’re wearing; get raped by the people we’re told to trust to protect us from rapists. We’ve had multiple threads here in which people provided multiple cites for all of this, and the people pushing the sort of “advice” you’re pushing were challenged to provide cites that such advice worked and produced nothing whatsoever. There’s difference types of advice given, some is hog wash but not all of it is. There is a difference between teaching people (not just women, but all people) about being situationally aware of their surroundings, of being familiar with the nature of the neighborhood they are in, and how it varies at different times. I don’t see anywhere where I posted that women shouldn’t go outside at night, or shouldn’t dress in a certain way, so if you want to attack those sort of things go ahead, they have nothing to do with me or anything I’ve ever said. Conflating domestic violence with public, stranger on stranger violence is also not germane. Police authorities are expected to respond to both sorts of things, and there’s all kinds of specific advice given to women facing domestic violence by experts, police etc. Lots of that advice doesn’t work well, because just like prevent stranger on stranger crime, preventing domestic violence isn’t easy or simple. That doesn’t mean broad concepts like: go to a shelter, get away from your abuser, don’t stay with him because he pays the rent or because you’re worried about losing a caretaker for your children, aren’t good bits of advice. It’s just that no magical advice is going to fix violence, advice like this is only able to mitigate to some small degree. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953.md?page=8)