# UK Green party peer suggests 6 pm curfew for men **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 15, 2021, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953 "2021-03-15T20:19:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/161 "2021-03-18T18:38:26Z")
I am not proposing a curfew on men. Nor is anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/162 "2021-03-18T18:44:30Z")
The popular and social media has certainly been busy trying to frame it that way. Not anybody’s fault here of course. For me, the discussion has served its purpose. I know I need to spend some time learning what I can do, but I don’t think I am alone in having needed to be led by the hand to that realisation. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/163 "2021-03-18T18:55:16Z")
One thing that can be done - but requires reading the situation and being able to improvise, is giving the harrassed a friend. “Jill, is that you? Wow I don’t think I’ve seen you since the Brady’s party. How are you doing.” And just keep talking. The skulker will likely leave for easier prey. If the woman really feels threatened, she’ll catch what you are doing (although a few facial expressions might help here) and play along. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/164 "2021-03-18T19:04:10Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > The popular and social media has certainly been busy trying to frame it that way. That’s not exactly unprecedented, of course. Pretty much any time a movement tries to put out any kind of message to the effect “Hey, the Status Quo Is Still Kind of Bad for Historically Disadvantaged Groups”, the popular and social media go full-on triggered overreaction about it. This seems to happen no matter how moderately or “provocatively” the message is phrased. “Black lives matter.” “OMG they’re saying that white lives don’t matter!” “Kneel in a traditionally respectful and reverential posture before the flag during the anthem.” “OMG they’re disrespecting the flag!” “Defund the police.” “OMG they want to do away with police entirely!” “No human is illegal.” “OMG they are advocating totally open borders!” “How would you feel if there were a curfew for men?” “OMG they are trying to collectively punish all men for the violent actions of a few!” ISTM that this isn’t coincidental, this is just the status quo mindset protecting itself from having to confront anything that might challenge it. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/165 "2021-03-18T19:25:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > “Defund the police.” “OMG they want to do away with police entirely!” In this one’s defense, “defund the police” sounds like it means “stop paying for police,” which _would_ do away with police entirely, unless you had some sort of all-volunteer police force. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/166 "2021-03-18T19:33:58Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > In this one’s defense, “defund the police” sounds like it means “stop paying for police,” which _would_ do away with police entirely Oh, no question that some of these messages are phrased, as I said, more provocatively or startlingly than others. My point is that the reflex media overreaction to them doesn’t seem particularly dependent on how provocatively or temperately they’re worded. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/167 "2021-03-18T19:37:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > > there still remains a non-negligible amount who will be amenable. > > _Are_ there, though? Because it’s also possible all the amenable men, the ones _not_ #notallmen-ing threads about violence against women, have already been won over, and only the recalcitrant are left. I think some of the recalcitrant may eventually come over. However – I don’t think they’ll come over because of anything women do or don’t say. I think some of them will come over if they run into enough men saying the equivalent of ‘dude, that’s not cool’ – whether about things they may be doing themselves, or about giving bad ‘advice’ to women. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I think everyone gets it was only intended as a thought experiment, but for thought experiments to be useful they should have some logical consistency, which this one does not. Women feel unsafe going out on their own because of societal issues, so as a thought experiment imagine if the government said men couldn’t go out after a certain hour or face arrest…what? Of course it has logical consistency. It’s saying, stop giving us advice to just stay home, because there’s no way you’d give that advice to men. Something different needs to be done. @Stanislaus: very good post (#138). > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > There’s difference types of advice given, some is hog wash but not all of it is. There is a difference between teaching people (not just women, but all people) about being situationally aware of their surroundings, of being familiar with the nature of the neighborhood they are in, and how it varies at different times. I don’t see anywhere where I posted that women shouldn’t go outside at night, or shouldn’t dress in a certain way, so if you want to attack those sort of things go ahead, they have nothing to do with me or anything I’ve ever said. What you did say, without specifying, was: > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > My perspective is none of those things is putting the “burden” on women. I view those things as “advice” when the thread was specifically discussing bad and burdensome advice. If you’d said ‘both men and women should be taught situational awareness in the same fashion’, I wouldn’t have responded as I did. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Conflating domestic violence with public, stranger on stranger violence is also not germane. The point of bringing up domestic violence was to point out one of the reasons why the advice given to women is often bad advice. Telling women to stay home when home may be more dangerous than going out is bad advice. Telling women to go out only accompanied by others is bad advice, because in addition to posing an unreasonable burden, the others they’re supposed to get to accompany them (whether people they live with, friends, acquaintances, or the store security guard) may be the ones who pose the danger. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I think the goal of the thought experiment as stated by you, inherently collapsed because you’re conflating some sort of “persuasion” with “government rule of law”, and anyone who sees the thought experiment as a headline will view it in that way, as a sensationalist proposal of government overreach. Most people in this thread don’t seem to be viewing it that way; even those who saw the headline. I think you may be assuming that your reaction is the reaction of “anybody” And I think you’re wrong about that. > [@casdave](#): > > but to lump all men into that category of violent individuals The whole point of the comparison is that it would be unfair to lock up all men because of the behavior of some of them! Just as it’s unfair to shut the women up because of the behavior of others, it would also be wrong to shut up some of the men because of the behavior of others. That’s the point. > [@Mangetout](#): > > I’m interested to know what people think you could or should have done in this situation. – I see @Kimstu’s covered this, but I’ll add: Strike up conversations with your male friends and acquaintances about how uncomfortable and helpless you felt in the situation, and how it must have been much worse for the woman involved. If any of them thinks it wasn’t a big deal, push back. > [@casdave](#): > > If you say a number of individuals are brutes and need to be controlled, fine, you could point out they are all from one sector of the population - still fine, because it is fact, but to extend that to all members of the male population and to take what is effectively a legal restriction upon them, that isn’t feelings at all - that is an injustice. Again, that’s the point; that it’s an injustice either way around. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/168 "2021-03-18T19:45:18Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > But you are not talking about **Feelings** , you are talking about **Actions** , and those actions involve effectively criminalising half the population in order to justify keeping them locked up Wait! Telling people they need to stay home is criminalizing them? I know the hypothesis (curfew for men) is not a serious suggestion, and would be unduly restrictive. But it’s really not about criminalizing anyone. It’s about pointing out to men just HOW restrictive the advice given to women is. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/169 "2021-03-18T20:17:36Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > There are almost certainly people for whose the level of support and activity will be affected by the way in which the argument is put to them. Almost certainly. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > In any case who is lost to us by using the more inclusive and careful language? Where is the downside? It’s giving up a very useful filter for trustworthy allies versus fickle “friends” who once again are putting _all_ the hard work on the oppressed class? If someone is going to be turned off by the language used, they’re not actually invested. Anyone who cares that much about appearances is not really committed to the cause. It’s exactly like those “not racists” who want to make their Black friends do all the work of educating them - but don’t want to actually hear that they might have a few little bit racist behaviours. I’m a man, and I do not give a _flying_ fuck if a woman says “men are X” in these conversations, or objects when the inevitable Whatabout Man “Well, Acktchually!”-s another thread back into Sausageville. More power to those women. Because it’s not about me. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/170 "2021-03-18T20:18:59Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I don’t think I am alone in having needed to be led by the hand to that realisation. It’s **2021** , man. Did you _really_? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/171 "2021-03-18T20:38:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s **2021** , man. Did you _really_ ? Pretty obviously quite a lot of people do. A considerably bigger problem is the ones who have no intention of being open to realizing anything. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/172 "2021-03-18T20:45:04Z")
One consciousness-raising analogy that I’ve seen used about this issue is for white people to imagine that they’re living in one of the many unofficial “sundown towns” that existed in 20th-c. America, where black people were allowed to work and shop during the day but could not reside or purchase property in. (There were also many official sundown towns where these restrictions were imposed in law, of course.) And the white person’s talking to a black friend about how to stay safe in the situation: “Oops, it’s getting a bit late in the afternoon, I guess you’ll have to be going now, let me walk out with you to your car just so nobody gets a wrong idea about your staying here. And you know it’s better to drive out on Macallen than on Cardinal Street because Cardinal leads through some pretty hostile neighborhoods, right?” I mean, all of that is very well-intentioned advice and helpfulness that’s just trying to help the black friend stay safe in a dangerous environment, of course. But surely you can see how the friend might also be thinking “Thanks for your concern and all, but WTF? Why is all this forethought and advice being devoted to how I should behave so as to avoid these dangers? Why aren’t you talking instead to your fellow white people about what’s wrong with this situation in the first place?” I get how a lot of men genuinely don’t want to live in a sexist culture, just as quite a few 20th-century white people genuinely didn’t want to live in a racist culture, but not unreasonably felt that it was just the way things were and the most practical thing they could do was to help the potential victims stay out of trouble. But sometimes that attitude can be aggravating for the person who feels that they’re being unfairly saddled with the responsibility to stay out of trouble that’s not of their making. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/173 "2021-03-18T20:59:45Z")
I will admit that I once too used to complain about sweeping generalizations, and that it was GamerGate that really opened my eyes to why this attitude was…counterproductive, shall we say. Yes, I used to be one of those #notallmen guys - after all, _I_ wasn’t actively harassing female gamers. I wasn’t doxxing them, I wasn’t threatening them, I wasn’t spreading nasty rumors about them while pretending that _actually_ it was about ethics in gaming journalism. No, I just wanted them to acknowledge that I wasn’t like those other guys and was that too much to ask? And then one day when I was reading about the frankly horrific scale of the abuse that had been going on and the penny dropped. Sure, I was a “nice guy” and didn’t mean those women any harm - but by insisting that they cater to what _I_ wanted, even in a tiny way, I was just making things harder for them. My little half-ounce of selfish indulgence may not have been pressing down hard, but it was on the wrong side of the scale, the same side with the liars and doxxers and ultramisogynists. And I realized that maybe - just maybe - what I wanted wasn’t that important if all it did was make things worse for people already being victimized. Because ultimately I’m not actually harmed by people saying “men do this” or “white people do that” or “straight people do the other thing”. Yes, it can be annoying - but, keeping things in perspective, should I be more annoyed by being broadly included in with other people who do bad things, or should I be more annoyed that _so many_ of the group I belong to are genuinely doing those bad things in the first place? If the least I can do to help is to put up with some minor irritation rather than stomping off like a spoiled toddler, I think I can just about manage that. In conclusion, don’t be this guy: [![](https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/2014-04-10-pltm196.jpg?w=800&quality=85) ](https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/2014-04-10-pltm196.jpg?w=800&quality=85) ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/174 "2021-03-18T21:30:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > If someone is going to be turned off by the language used, they’re not actually invested. Anyone who cares that much about appearances is not really committed to the cause. They probably aren’t even really Scottish either. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/175 "2021-03-18T22:20:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s **2021** , man. Did you _really_ ? Yes. Obvious things are only obvious after you know them. How do you think I should already? ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/176 "2021-03-18T22:40:00Z")
I know I’m not contributing anything here but I feel compelled to say that this has been a really really interesting discussion so far that has really helped me to get my thoughts in order about all of this. Thank you all. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/177 "2021-03-18T23:06:55Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > > [@MrDibble](#): > > > > It’s **2021** , man. Did you _really_ ? > > Yes. Obvious things are only obvious after you know them. How do you think I should already? I have also needed to have people point out to me my racism, and some other privileged positions. And I’m still pretty damn imperfect. But I’m trying, and have a better target to aim for due to help from others. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/178 "2021-03-18T23:31:08Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I mean, all of that is very well-intentioned advice and helpfulness that’s just trying to help the black friend stay safe in a dangerous environment, of course. But surely you can see how the friend might also be thinking “Thanks for your concern and all, but WTF? Why is all this forethought and advice being devoted to how I should behave so as to avoid these dangers? Why aren’t you talking instead to your fellow white people about what’s wrong with this situation in the first place?” Well, yeah, but assuming the Helpful Guy is halfway intelligent he is only assuming two things: that his black friend is also fairly intelligent and careful, and that _talking_ to those those racist morons is useless and that anything short of US Marshals and National Guard aint gonna do shit. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2021, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/179 "2021-03-19T00:00:05Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I have also needed to have people point out to me my racism, and some other privileged positions. And I’m still pretty damn imperfect. But I’m trying, and have a better target to aim for due to help from others. Ditto. We’ve all got walls in our heads. And you can’t see them until you can see them. That’s the nature of walls in our heads – part of what they’re walling off is the ability to see them. > [@DrDeth](#): > > assuming the Helpful Guy is halfway intelligent he is only assuming two things: > > that his black friend is also fairly intelligent and careful, > > and that _talking_ to those those racist morons is useless and that anything short of US Marshals and National Guard aint gonna do shit. Is he also assuming that talking to all the other people who’ve been assuming the situation can’t change is useless, and nothing whatsoever will ever either get the Marshals and the Guard out there, or render it unnecessary to do so? Because if so: he’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2021, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953/180 "2021-03-19T00:15:52Z")
Defender of the defended! I like that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-green-party-peer-suggests-6-pm-curfew-for-men/937953.md?page=10)