UK Police and sidearms

Factual Questions
21

I remember having this conversation with police in the UK in the early 90s. As an American, it struck me as astonishing that they weren’t armed. But I was quickly persuaded by a few interactions that the police didn’t want firearms, for several reasons.

They felt it would make them a target, and create an arms race between them and criminals. As it stood then (and now, I suppose) they said criminals weren’t likely to have guns because they didn’t really need them, and because the legal consequences of being caught with one were not worth it.

Perhaps more importantly, it seemed they had a different idea of how they wanted to be perceived. One officer showed me her truncheon - a small billy club that fit fully in her pocket. She said they didn’t want to be seen as armed and dangerous. And perhaps that’s why I felt comfortable approaching the police there and and having that pleasant conversation.

22

We had that in places here, too.

Carr: Them clothes got laundry numbers on them. You remember your number and always wear the ones that has your number. Any man forgets his number spends a night in the box.

These here spoons you keep with you. Any man loses his spoon spends a night in the box.

There’s no playing grab-ass or fighting in the building. You got a grudge against another man, you fight him Saturday afternoon. Any man playing grab-ass or fighting in the building spends a night in the box.

First bell’s at five minutes of eight when you will get in your bunk. Last bell is at eight. Any man not in his bunk at eight spends the night in the box.

There is no smoking in the prone position in bed. To smoke you must have both legs over the side of your bunk. Any man caught smoking in the prone position in bed… spends a night in the box.

You get two sheets. Every Saturday, you put the clean sheet on the top… the top sheet on the bottom… and the bottom sheet you turn in to the laundry boy. Any man turns in the wrong sheet spends a night in the box.

No one’ll sit in the bunks with dirty pants on. Any man with dirty pants on sitting on the bunks spends a night in the box.

Any man don’t bring back his empty pop bottle spends a night in the box.

Any man loud talking spends a night in the box. You got questions, you come to me. I’m Carr, the floor walker. I’m responsible for order in here. Any man don’t keep order spends a night in…

Luke: …the box.

23

I don’t think so. It’s hard to find anything definite, as the police don’t like publicising where the weapons are stored, for obvious reasons, but a look at the stats they do publish indicates it wouldn’t make sense.

There are 48 forces across England and Wales- 45 covering various areas, and 3 dedicated for specific purposes, some of whom are routinely armed. There are only around 7000 police authorised to use a firearm; around 1/3 of them are in London. It’s also important to note that ‘authorised to use a firearm’ doesn’t, in most areas, mean they get to decide to take the gun out, it means they can be issued one; outside of roles with blanket authority, which do seem to be spreading, a firearm is individually issued for a specific purpose.

In 2017, the most recent year I can find data for, only 4 of the 45 regular forces had more than 200 armed police, all major cities. The major cities all have dedicated armed squads- who don’t do routine duties while armed, and use specific vehicles marked so helicopters can distinguish them from the regular forces, as well as wearing extra body armour.

They’re either called in for a specific reason -which can be routine patrol in some higher risk areas- or on call, in case of a major incident. Only the major cities bother publishing much info about how this works, and there are some differences between regional forces, but the basic principle, as per stated guidelines, is of having specific highly trained teams with serious gear on call, rather than the odd handgun dotted around, because Bob (when he’s in), has a permit.

Besides, the sheer lack of numbers indicate that they’re not going to keep stuff stored all over; one police force had only 31 police licenced to carry in a county with a population of over 500,000. I’d be surprised if they weren’t all based at one site- it’d minimise the copious paperwork involved, for a start.

It really does need to be emphasised how infrequent police firearm use can be in much of the country; the county of Cumbria, with a population of over half a million, had armed police activity only around 10 times in 2019. In the same year, shots were fired at a person only 13 times in the entirety of England and Wales. And that was the highest number of the decade.
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24

Also, avoid village gatherings like fêtes, cricket matches, concerts. If you see them constructing a wicker cage, get the hell out.

25

Inspector Morse, played by the late great John Thaw, was the gentleman detective who drove a Jaguar and listened to classical music while investigating sinister murders amongst the genteel residents of pretty Oxfordshire villages.

‘Who done it?’ detective dramas are intriguing puzzles full of clues and red herrings. Uniformed police are just extras who take the guilty party away in handcuffs.

Inspector Morse was made in the 1980s. It was murder for posh people.

Thaw had also appeared in the crime drama ‘The Sweeney’ in the 1970s.

A very different genre of crime thriller, where firearms and fisticuffs were and important part of the action. This was the famous ‘Flying Squad’ who were armed and had fast cars and chased after Cockney villains intent on robbing banks. This was murder for working class people.

But that is so much fiction.

In reality it is rare to see a London policeman with a gun. If you do, there is something very serious afoot like a terror alert or if someone has been seen with a gun in public. That will bring out a swat team.

Policemen are really not very good with guns. They have a tendency to shoot the wrong people. When that happens, people get very angry and in the past there have been riots that have caused millions in damage. That usually leads to major public inquiry.

When a policeman does something bad, everyone feels very let down, not least the police themselves. The principle is that the police are the community. They do the policing job that the community wants to be done. Dealing with the unpleasant stuff like car accidents and domestic incidents, drunks and nasty, violent criminals. For that, they get a lot of respect from the public who help them and trust them. But, on the other hand, they have high expectations to live up to.

There have been some pretty bad incidents recently with bad cops that has led to a lot of public outrage and political pressure for change. The London Metropolitan Police are due for a new set of institutional reforms to weed out some of the bad apples that have come to light recently.

26

As in fine documentaries like this one* :grinning: . And you say we can’t learn UK policing from TV - hmph.

  • I was actually slightly surprised I remembered the title of that one. Somehow it made an impression on me as a teenager, despite only seeing it that once. And reading that entry I see they only showed 20 of the 30 episodes in the US. I should check if you can stream it anywhere and see how crap it holds up for the now middle-aged me.
27

Just throwing in that the UK isn’t totally homogeneous here: In Northern Ireland, police officers routinely carry guns, as do their counterparts in the US. Generally, the number of guns among the population is much higher in Northern Ireland than in England, Wales, or Scotland (I suppose it’s a legacy of “the Troubles”), so the risk/benefit assessment speaks in favour of arming cops. Gun control is also very different: In England, it’s practically impossible to legally get a pistol as a private citizen, and rifles are largely limited to hunters; in Northern Ireland, firearms licensing is far less restrictive.

28

Let’s turn this question around. What happens if the bad guy can outrun the US or Canadian cop? Are they allowed to kill him? Because in the UK, we don’t actually give our police permission to murder suspects who are running away. Just seems a little excessive.

29

didnt “Oliver’s army” (which was a shit job its self) back up the cops or in someplace were the cops in NI?

30

in the old days it was acceptable to non leathlly "ding " them in the leg or foot… other places said any place you could aim to slow them down was acceptable

31

I guess we better hope your cops are a good shot then

32

This is the nation that invented the phrase, “It’s a fair cop!” How else would you expect their criminals to respond?

33

I honestly don’t know, however, I assume that it’s going to depend on the country and municipality, local attitudes wrt racism, attitudes and competence of the individual cop, nature of the training received, and the severity of the crime.

Even in Canada (our reputation notwithstanding) we have had our share of excessive shootings and/or suicide by cop.

34

Where did Columbo live? Hey, that was dangerous there!

35

It think this has far more to do with attitude than anything else. As mentioned above, Canadian police are routinely equipped with essentially the same stuff as American police, but are usually as approachable as you describe above. I’ve never hesitated to speak to a cop in public in Canada, even to the extent of asking one how he used a funny-shaped baton* I’d seen several local cops carrying, while I was in a pub drinking.

American cops, like a lot of other Americans, seem to come to work with that, “Are you looking at me?!?” attitude.

*It had a handle on the end like a shovel D handle. Mid 1990s, haven’t seen once since, so I guess they weren’t very popular or practical.

36

Are they more subtle than sidearms ?
As in …“excuse me sir, just as an aside … EAT LEAD !”

37

UK police do an lot of outreach work in schools and community events. Kids are taught that if you have a problem you ‘ask a policeman’ because are there to help.

This takes a lot of work, but it pays dividends. The UK has more or less the same population as France, but there the police are armed and regard their role as keeping order for the state. They are not there to help the public. This approach is expensive, it requires three times as many police as the UK.

I remember taking a French friend around a rough Northern town on Christmas Eve one year and witnessing lots of brawls. He was amazed by the police who seemed to walk into bars and everything would quieten down. They did not seem arrest anyone unless they were completely out of control. I explain this was how it was. There are limited number of large coppers to deal with this regular mayhem and break up the fights. They tend to know the usual suspects and when it is time to arrest them for a night in the cells. He said it was like the Wild West. I should say that this was many years ago and the drinking culture has moderated considerably, even in the macho North.

I asked what it was like in a France and he said brawling was rare and there was less public drunkenness. If the police come there would more likely be a fight between the owner and all the customers against the police, who could be very brutal with their batons and they had side arms. There are many communities where the French police are not welcome.

In Germany the police are armed, but rely an culture that tends to respect authority. Their standard procedure when incidents get violent is to draw firearms and point at the legs.

Police culture tends to be a reflection on the political culture and the constitution of communities that are policed. The British police sometimes make mistakes and misjudge the community they serve. Then there is riot and a lot of soul searching to restore confidence. It requires constant work to get the balance right.

Also, these days, everyone is carrying a smartphone camera or broadcasting a livestream and the police themselves wear body cameras. This is a big change and it discourages false complaints as much as it exposes really bad police behaviour. Police in London have been found to have been exchanging really bad messages on WhatsApp revealing some hideous attitudes. There is a lot of pressure to weed out the bad apples, not least internally from officers themselves. Hopefully some good will come of that.

38

Also known as ‘policing by consent’ - which is the official, central philosophy behind UK policing. You can read about if here on the UK Government website.. It basically means that UK policing bases its legitimacy on having the confidence of the public, rather than imposing order through sheer brute force. They treat us with respect, and we’ll respect them in return. That’s the theory, anyway.

39

So as not to derail the thread I will just point you to Tennessee v Garner which is the most important piece of caselaw dealing with fleeing felons.

40

Which I guess means a gun should only be for self defence. So the ‘running felon’ escapes either way.