# UK Politics : "The Lib Dems are a spent force". If true, why ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 14, 2019, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529 "2019-04-14T11:04:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529/1 "2019-04-14T11:04:09Z")
In the Brexit thread, **Oswald Bastable** made the above remark, which I’ve quoted almost verbatim. I’m not denying this analysis, looking at the most recent polls it even seems perfectly arguable, but I can’t help wondering why. I think that for the longest time, they were a solid third party, never able to win national elections yet strong enough to make their voices heard. Did their ill-advised coalition with Cameron do them in ? Not being a Brit, I would never been allowed to vote in the UK, but I must admit that the Lib Dems always had my sympathy, partly as dark horses but more importantly with regards their position on the EU. The Tories, not so much. Needless to say, I have only contempt for UKIP and the Emperor’s-New-Clothes-Brexit Party. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529/2 "2019-04-14T11:14:39Z")
> [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > Not being a Brit, I would never been allowed to vote in the UK, but I must admit that the Lib Dems always had my sympathy, partly as dark horses but more importantly with regards their position on the EU. I am in almost your exact position, and I also wonder if there has been any polls of Lib Dem popularity recently. If there has, and their popularity has not improved in the wake of the ongoing Brexit fiasco, I’d think that that would be solid evidence that they will not regain any strength, since if anything could help them, it would be the Brexit circus. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529/3 "2019-04-14T15:22:19Z")
The problem for the Lib Dems is that the First Past the Post system we have encourages political polarisation, just like America. As the middle party, they get squeezed out. That Brexit has not helped their cause is more down to the left-wing anti-Brexit press organisations like the Guardian being pro-Labour. The Lib Dems scarcely get any visibility. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529/4 "2019-04-14T18:08:54Z")
Well, is there even a newspaper that’s pro-Lib Dem ? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529/5 "2019-04-14T19:01:33Z")
> [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > Well, is there even a newspaper that’s pro-Lib Dem ? The Guardian has recommended voting for them in the past, but these days? I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529/6 "2019-04-14T19:04:56Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > The problem for the Lib Dems is that the First Past the Post system we have encourages political polarisation, just like America. As the middle party, they get squeezed out. Yet another myth about First-past-the-post. In Canada, we have First/past-the-post and at the federal level it’s the centrist Liberals which benefit. They are the dominant party, with the longest track record for forming governments. The right-wing Conservatives are the main other party and have formed governments. The lefty socialist party is the third party that is marginalised and has never been in power. FPTP has an effect on voting and elections, yes, but the influence is a lot more nuanced than is often stated with such confidence on these boards. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2019, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529/7 "2019-04-15T00:02:04Z")
If the LibDems are the only ones that truly oppose Brexit, compared to the muddled positions of Labour and the Conservatives, doesn’t that give them a clear position in the election? Not saying it will revitalize them to major party status, but I would think it might attract strong Remain voters. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2019, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529/8 "2019-04-15T04:18:15Z")
The 2010 coalition killed the Lib Dems along with the rise of the SNP. Being the 3rd largest party at least gets you two questions at PMQs. I’m sure there will be some sort of merger between the Lib Dems and the Independent Group. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2019, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529/9 "2019-04-15T04:25:17Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > If the LibDems are the only ones that truly oppose Brexit, compared to the muddled positions of Labour and the Conservatives, doesn’t that give them a clear position in the election? That was also true in 2017, and it got them diddly squat. Remain areas swung more toward Labour than the Lib Dems. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2019, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529/10 "2019-04-15T04:59:16Z")
True. I’m just wondering if the dilly-dallying by Labour over Brexit for the past two years may have clarified positions on Leave/Remain to the point that a solidly Remain party may now do better at the polls. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2019, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529/11 "2019-05-03T08:35:41Z")
[Perhaps not quite spent yet.](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48142181) > [@](#): > > The Tories have lost nearly 450 seats and 18 English councils so far, many of them to a resurgent Liberal Democrats. > > … > > BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg said the results so far suggested both of the two main parties are being punished for their handling of Brexit, with the Liberal Democrats, Green Party and independents benefitting from their losses. > > … > > The Liberal Democrats have gained eight councils - including Winchester, North Norfolk, Cotswold and Bath and North East Somerset ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2019, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529/12 "2019-05-03T11:59:47Z")
> [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > [Perhaps not quite spent yet.](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48142181) As of the latest report, Lib-Dems have gained 342 council seats, while independents have gained 243. Supposedly the leading third party, the Lib Dems have only gained 52% of the available seats from a protest vote that rejected the two main parties and UKIP. That’s not a resurgence. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2019, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529/13 "2019-05-03T12:42:02Z")
Is there a good unbiased summary somewhere that explains the policy differences among the UK parties? For example, what is the difference between LibDem and Labour? How many parties actually have seats in Parliament? Some parties are apparently for laughs, like the Raving Monster Loony Party -or are they serious? ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2019, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529/14 "2019-05-03T13:26:26Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > As of the latest report, Lib-Dems have gained 342 council seats, while independents have gained 243. Supposedly the leading third party, the Lib Dems have only gained 52% of the available seats from a protest vote that rejected the two main parties and UKIP. That’s not a resurgence. Perhaps not. But on the other hand, reports of their demise may have been somewhat exaggerated. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2019, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529/15 "2019-05-03T13:44:40Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Yet another myth about First-past-the-post. > > In Canada, we have First/past-the-post and at the federal level it’s the centrist Liberals which benefit. They are the dominant party, with the longest track record for forming governments. The right-wing Conservatives are the main other party and have formed governments. The lefty socialist party is the third party that is marginalised and has never been in power. > > FPTP has an effect on voting and elections, yes, but the influence is a lot more nuanced than is often stated with such confidence on these boards. It does squeeze the third party out, though, which is what he said - albeit not due to political polarisation, it tends to centralise things like you say. Are there fptp systems anywhere in the world that routinely split the vote 3 or 4 ways? Proportional representation has been a mission statement of lib dems since they were founded, so they absolutely value voting reform. They had a sort of shot at it in the Cameron coalition but the bill was a complete failure IIRC - I’d need to refresh my memory on what exactly happened but it got no momentum, wasn’t pitched to the electorate adequately, had no serious political will behind it as the Tories weren’t arsed with it. The Liberal party was a reasonably serious outfit back in the 70s, so this supplied a generation of Lib Dem MPs who were at least credible parliamentarians. This seems to have been exhausted the last few years, so they’ve had personel problems with some extremely ordinary leaders. Not that the other parties are much different in this regard, but when you’ve only got 15 or so MPs the talent vacuum really bites. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2019, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529/16 "2019-05-03T13:59:11Z")
The Lib Dems were on the rise in 2010, but their ill-advised coalition with the Conservatives - in which the Conservatives gave them nothing but a half-arsed referendum on changing the voting system and in return managed to force the Lib Dems to break pretty much every election promise they had made and to take the blame for the worst excesses of the Conservatives - absolutely obliterated their credibility among their base. On top of that they engaged in a fair amount of circular firing squad behaviour and own-goals - consider Tim Farron’s weird waffling about LGBT rights and faith healing. As a result, they have a long, long way to go to come back from their mistakes. Personally I’d love for them to be a viable party and there’s a definite political niche they could fill, but they do seem to be their own worst enemies. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2019, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529/17 "2019-05-03T14:00:48Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > As of the latest report, Lib-Dems have gained 342 council seats, while independents have gained 243. Supposedly the leading third party, the Lib Dems have only gained 52% of the available seats from a protest vote that rejected the two main parties and UKIP. That’s not a resurgence. I think that’s mainly bad news for the Lib Dem leadership because it does mean they aren’t having much success without an alliance or merger, but for the rank and file anti-Brexiters it means their chances would increase if such a coalition does come about. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2019, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529/18 "2019-05-03T14:15:58Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Is there a good unbiased summary somewhere that explains the policy differences among the UK parties? For example, what is the difference between LibDem and Labour? How many parties actually have seats in Parliament? Some parties are apparently for laughs, like the Raving Monster Loony Party -or are they serious? For current standings in the House of Commons, see the wiki page: > **[House of Commons of the United Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Commons_of_the_United_Kingdom)** > > The House of Commons\[d\] is the lower house of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. Like the upper house, the House of Lords, it meets in the Palace of Westminster in London, England. The House of Commons is an elected body consisting of 650 members known as members of Parliament (MPs). MPs are elected to represent constituencies by the first-past-the-post system and hold their seats until Parliament is dissolved. > The House of Commons of England began to evolve in the 13th and 14th centuries.... ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2019, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529/19 "2019-05-03T14:23:28Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Is there a good unbiased summary somewhere that explains the policy differences among the UK parties? For example, what is the difference between LibDem and Labour? How many parties actually have seats in Parliament? Some parties are apparently for laughs, like the Raving Monster Loony Party -or are they serious? I’d suggest checking out politicshome. > **[Politicshome.com | Breaking politics and political news for Westminster and...](https://www.politicshome.com)** > > All the latest political news, opinion, interviews and analysis from Westminster, Whitehall and beyond I’m American, but I find it a fairly unbiased site. BBC radio 4 also has a non biased podcast called Today in Parliament which is pretty interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Mrs\_McGinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6bbea6/32.png) [@Mrs\_McGinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrs_McGinty)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2019, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529/20 "2019-05-03T17:04:36Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > As of the latest report, Lib-Dems have gained 342 council seats, while independents have gained 243. Supposedly the leading third party, the Lib Dems have only gained 52% of the available seats from a protest vote that rejected the two main parties and UKIP. That’s not a resurgence. It seems that local Lib Dem organisations made agreements with their Green counterparts not to stand against each other. Both parties also seem not to have put up candidates in areas with strong independent groups with similar policies and a better chance of beating the big two (and UKIP). This certainly seems to have been the case where I live - there were no Lib Dem or Green candidates on the two ballots I posted, and the independents have absolutely kicked the shit out of the Tory incumbents, taking them from overwhelming dominance to the slimmest of majorities on the council. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-politics-the-lib-dems-are-a-spent-force-if-true-why/832529.md?page=2)