# UK Snap Election: 8 June 2017 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 18, 2017, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690 "2017-04-18T10:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/243 "2017-05-03T13:24:47Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > They won a vote, but they haven’t won the argument. Actually, they did. Try facing up to it. Try respecting it. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/244 "2017-05-03T13:27:05Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > What is a CLP in this context? Constituency Local Party or People perhaps? Constituency Labour Party. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/245 "2017-05-03T13:41:39Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Actually, they did. Try facing up to it. Try respecting it. Seeing as you can’t point to where Brexiters get the information to doubt that Remain’s statistics were good, I don’t think they did. Causes without basis in fact do not get my respect. Much like Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/246 "2017-05-03T14:13:20Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Seeing as you can’t point to where Brexiters get the information to doubt that Remain’s statistics were good, I don’t think they did. > > Causes without basis in fact do not get my respect. Much like Trump. There are many people who don’t doubt that brexit may cause a downturn in the economy, they honestly and truthfully believe it is worth short-medium term pain in order to regain full control of their country. That’s a perfectly reasonable position to take and doesn’t require clinging to economic predicitions…which…need I remind anyone, come from the same people that failed to predict the 2007/8 crash…and the one before that…and the one before that…and the one before that…etc. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/247 "2017-05-03T14:31:01Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > There are many people who don’t doubt that brexit may cause a downturn in the economy, they honestly and truthfully believe it is worth short-medium term pain in order to regain full control of their country. And if they think they’re getting more control than what we already have under the EU, on what basis do they believe this? I’ve asked this before and the responses assume all kinds of false things about how the EU works, the UK’s interaction with it, and how international relations _actually_ work. And anyway, that wasn’t the Leave claim in the campaign. Their mantra was that it’s all ‘scaremongering’, but now you’re revising history to claim they actually agreed with the Remain claims? > [@](#): > > That’s a perfectly reasonable position to take and doesn’t require clinging to economic predicitions…which…need I remind anyone, come from the same people that failed to predict the 2007/8 crash…and the one before that…and the one before that…and the one before that…etc. I find that British weather forecasts aren’t the most reliable, but when they say take an umbrella, I take an umbrella. The idea that because experts can get it wrong allows laymen to claim any kind of hare-brained scheme will work is akin to creationists insisting they’re right because scientists sometimes get their theories disproven and they change their findings. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/248 "2017-05-03T15:24:36Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Seeing as you can’t point to where Brexiters get the information to doubt that Remain’s statistics were good, I don’t think they did. They were self-evidently false. I mean, WW3? Global financial collapse? Simply for voting for Brexit. It was seen as bullshit then and been shown to be bullshit since. Since you put such faith in economic predictions, tell me, which of the pre-Brexit referendum economic forecasts by Remain have been correct? The Pound has gone down a bit, but the economy’s up, unemployment is down, etc etc. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/249 "2017-05-03T15:25:35Z")
May accusing Brussels of influencing the election. Jesus fucking Christ. This is the brave new world of Brexit? This is all part of setting out a position and working towards a deal is it? ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/250 "2017-05-03T15:32:18Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > They were self-evidently false. I mean, WW3? Global financial collapse? Simply for voting for Brexit. It was seen as bullshit then and been shown to be bullshit since. Cite, then? Not a Mail or Express article, but the words that come from the mouth of a prominent Remainer. What Cameron said in his speech on the UK’s strength and security was this: > [@](#): > > Can we be so sure that peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking? > I would never be so rash as to make that assumption. > It’s barely been 20 years since war in the Balkans and genocide on our continent in Srebrenica. In the last few years, we have seen tanks rolling into Georgia and Ukraine. And of this I am completely sure. > The European Union has helped reconcile countries which were once at each others’ throats for decades. Britain has a fundamental national interest in maintaining common purpose in Europe to avoid future conflict between European countries. At no point did Cameron ever mention WW3 or even war in Europe. The only person to mention WW3 was Boris Johnson when he said in response to Cameron’s speech: “No, I don’t believe that leaving the EU would cause World War Three to break out on the European continent.” > [@](#): > > Since you put such faith in economic predictions, tell me, which of the pre-Brexit referendum economic forecasts by Remain have been correct? The Pound has gone down a bit, but the economy’s up, unemployment is down, etc etc. UK does well under economic regime it wants to leave. News at 11. In the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote the stock markets did indeed collapse as was warned. However Cameron resigned and the government abandoned the plan to trigger article 50 immediately. I cannot find anyone saying anywhere that a global meltdown would result. Even the most pessimistic remain campaigner would be hard pushed to argue a global meltdown would occur. The closest I could find to this was the OECD saying that Britain voting to leave the EU would have a negative impact on the global economy. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/251 "2017-05-03T15:45:31Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > May accusing Brussels of influencing the election. > > Jesus fucking Christ. This is the brave new world of Brexit? > > This is all part of setting out a position and working towards a deal is it? Project Fear in [action](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2017/may/03/general-election-2017-official-campaign-begins-politics-live?page=with:block-5909f1f6e4b097b3ab99bc79#block-5909f1f6e4b097b3ab99bc79). > [@](#): > > If we don’t get the negotiation right, your economic security and prosperity will be put at risk and the opportunities you seek for your families will simply not happen. > > If we do not stand up and get this negotiation right we risk the secure and well-paid jobs we want for our children and our children’s children too. > > If we don’t get the negotiation right, if we let the bureaucrats of Brussels run over us, we will lose the chance to build a fairer society with real opportunity for all. I can’t help but admire the acknowledgment that Brexit is an inherently risky proposition which poses grave threats to jobs, prosperity and economic fairness. The Tories biggest concern over this election is that people can see it’s a done deal and won’t turn out, which could reduce their majority. So they’re pumping up the fear by a) pretending that a c. 18% poll lead might somehow evaporate; b) contrasting May as the strong alternative to weak Corbyn; c) casting Brussels as teh external enemy poised to savage poor innocent Britain unless a saviour can be found. All this to get people to the voting booths in those key marginals. It’s fairly obvious populist rhetoric: our country could be great, but is threatened by enemies within and without. Only I, the strong leader, can win victory for you the people and restore us to greatness. Help me help you by giving me more power. The idea that Brussels is trying to sabotage the election, or undermine May personally, rather than just getting on with the normal process of Brexit - which, let’s remember, has a two year timetable ticking away, election or no election - is in one sense laughable and in another very effective Tory propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/252 "2017-05-03T15:49:36Z")
Oh, **Quartz** , I found this too: [http://www.strongerin.co.uk/monetary\_policy\_committee\_warns\_possibility\_of\_eu\_exit\_is\_already\_damaging\_britain\_s\_economy#gGZHLtP9R1OPbGBC.97](http://www.strongerin.co.uk/monetary_policy_committee_warns_possibility_of_eu_exit_is_already_damaging_britain_s_economy#gGZHLtP9R1OPbGBC.97) > [@](#): > > The MPC concludes that the possibility of Britain leaving the EU is “the largest immediate risk facing UK financial markets, and possibly also global financial markets". Describing something as “possibly” a risk to global financial markets is not the same as saying “global meltdown to stock markets would inevitably result”. “Possibly” doesn’t mean “inevitably”, and “risk” does not equate to “meltdown”. But sure, believe all the Leaver strawmen. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/253 "2017-05-03T15:58:09Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > And if they think they’re getting more control than what we already have under the EU, on what basis do they believe this? I’ve asked this before and the responses assume all kinds of false things about how the EU works, the UK’s interaction with it, and how international relations _actually_ work. I guess it’ll be as much control as an independent sovereign nation can have, Australia? Canada? New Zealand? that sort of thing. > [@](#): > > And anyway, that wasn’t the Leave claim in the campaign. Their mantra was that it’s all ‘scaremongering’, but now you’re revising history to claim they actually agreed with the Remain claims? Unlike you I don’t claim to speak for brexiters or Remainers and don’t lump them all under a single pejorative banner, however, yes, it was a common enough belief and expressed often enough for it to seem like something other than an anomaly. Of course, with it being a moderate, nuanced and balanced opinion it was hardly likely ever to set the media on fire. The more explosive and extreme views (on each side) were always (and still are) more telegenic and media-friendly. > [@](#): > > I find that British weather forecasts aren’t the most reliable, but when they say take an umbrella, I take an umbrella. The weather forecasts are not accurate more than a few days in advance. Economic projections are the equivalent of predicting an afternoon shower on July 13th 2018. > [@](#): > > The idea that because experts can get it wrong allows laymen to claim any kind of hare-brained scheme will work is akin to creationists insisting they’re right because scientists sometimes get their theories disproven and they change their findings. I note your desperate need to cast Brexiters in the loony creationist camp and us in the rational scientist camp, tempting…but nowhere near an accurate analogy. No-one knows how the E.U. will turn out and no-one knows how Brexit will turn out. Anyone who sells you a certainty either way is lying. Indeed, the E.U. is probably the antithesis of science as it is ideologically driven and I’m not convinced those in charge are willing to change their approach when things go wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/254 "2017-05-03T16:12:18Z")
More Project Fear: > [@](#): > > Whoever wins on 8 June will face one overriding task: to get the best possible deal for this United Kingdom from Brexit. > > And in the last few days, we have seen just how tough these talks are likely to be. > > Britain’s negotiating position in Europe has been misrepresented in the continental press. Imagine the press misrepresenting one side’s negotiating position. Oh my! > [@](#): > > The European commission’s negotiating stance has hardened. The negotiation guidelines don’t materially differ from the draft guidelines we saw last month. The only thing that’s changed is that the EU are talking up the size of the bill for ongoing commitments. This is what negotiators do when they think the person on the other side of the table is weak. > [@](#): > > Threats against Britain have been issued by European politicians and officials. What threats? Which officials? If this is a reference to the EU position that Britain won’t have as good a deal outside the EU as it has inside, this has been the position since before June last year. It is not a threat, it’s an explanation of what the phrase"no longer a member of the EU" means. > [@](#): > > All of these acts have been deliberately timed to affect the result of the general election that will take place on 8 June. They’re all out to get me. I mean us. I mean me. > [@](#): > > By contrast, I made clear in my letter to the president of the European council invoking Article 50 last month that, in leaving the European Union, Britain means no harm to our friends and allies on the continent. Aside from the not-so-subtle threats about security co-operation being contingent on them playing ball. > [@](#): > > We continue to believe that no deal is better for Britain than a bad deal. > > But we want a deal. We want a deep and special partnership with the European Union. > > And we want the EU to succeed. See how nice we are? Unlike those bastards… > [@](#): > > But the events of the last few days have shown that - whatever our wishes, and however reasonable the positions of Europe’s other leaders - there are some in Brussels who do not want these talks to succeed. > > Who do not want Britain to prosper. Our enemies lurk in the shadows. Who can save us in hour of need? > [@](#): > > So now more than ever we need to be led by a prime minister and a government that is strong and stable. Ah, it’s you. Funny that, in the middle of an election and everything. > [@](#): > > Because making Brexit a success is central to our national interest. And it is central to your own security and prosperity. > > Because while there is enormous opportunity for Britain as we leave the European Union, if we do not get this right, the consequences will be serious. > > And they will be felt by ordinary, working people across the country. > > This Brexit negotiation is central to everything Remember this thing which we’ve always said will be fine? Well actually it’s incredibly risky and dangerous. Question: if Brussels pointing out that Brexit means Brexit is meant to demonstrate bad faith, what is it when May accuses unnamed EU officials and politicians of working to stop Britain from prospering? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/255 "2017-05-03T17:34:24Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > But sure, believe all the Leaver strawmen. Actually, I didn’t believe either side. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/256 "2017-05-03T20:38:23Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Actually, I didn’t believe either side. Well, you believed Leave’s strawmen about WW3 and about global economic meltdown? Do you concede that these were not Remain claims at all? ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/257 "2017-05-03T20:43:17Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I note your desperate need to cast Brexiters in the loony creationist camp and us in the rational scientist camp, tempting…but nowhere near an accurate analogy. No-one knows how the E.U. will turn out and no-one knows how Brexit will turn out. Anyone who sells you a certainty either way is lying. Indeed, the E.U. is probably the antithesis of science as it is ideologically driven and I’m not convinced those in charge are willing to change their approach when things go wrong. See, I used to think like that. But as every discussion I have with Brexiters seems to devolve into what we’ve seen here (i.e. baseless claims not defended, subject changes, then naive optimism, then told to shut up and accept the will of the people at some point), I have become unable to let that conclusion survive any longer. Fact is, the only sensible way to approach these things is to change something only when it’s broken, and only fix the part that’s broken, and do that when you know your endeavour will fix that problem. Leave has not demonstrated that. Even if they won with 99% of the vote, if no Brexiter can answer how Brexit will fix the EU’s problems, or the UK’s problems (which they haven’t), then this should not be happening. Otherwise, we’re just going through a decade of utter misery for nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/258 "2017-05-03T20:51:09Z")
Additional: I realise I keep lumping **Quartz** here with Brexiters even though he claims to be a Remainer, but presently he is exhibiting all the attitudes of a Brexiter, and I keep forgetting he’s apparently not. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/259 "2017-05-03T20:52:30Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Well, you believed Leave’s strawmen about WW3 and about global economic meltdown? No, those were Remain’s. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/260 "2017-05-03T21:19:19Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > No, those were Remain’s. _klaxon_ disproven above. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/261 "2017-05-03T21:37:40Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Additional: I realise I keep lumping **Quartz** here with Brexiters even though he claims to be a Remainer, but presently he is exhibiting all the attitudes of a Brexiter, and I keep forgetting he’s apparently not. Fwiw, I didn’t vote Brexit either. This crazy new paradigm where blue/red binary choices now longer work … ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/262 "2017-05-03T21:49:52Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > This crazy new paradigm where blue/red binary choices now longer work … Now it’s a Leave/Remain split rather than party political. Scottish politics split somewhat similarly after the indyref. I can’t say I’m pleased that various forms of nationalism are dominating our political landscapes at the moment - it rarely ends well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690.md?page=14)