# UK Snap Election: 8 June 2017 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 18, 2017, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690 "2017-04-18T10:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/383 "2017-05-16T13:17:29Z")
Generally, it seems that after the big splash of the leaked manifesto, the focus now is entirely on the niggly details and not on the big picture of what kind of government Labour wants to be. This was predictable anyhow, but the leak has let press and politicians sharpen their questions. Currently, Corbyn is getting into trouble over whether Labour will continue to freeze benefits. > [@](#): > > The issue was raised by ITV News’ Robert Peston, who asked why ending the benefits freeze did not feature in Labour’s 128-page vision for Britain. > > Mr Corbyn replied: “Yes, increasing benefits is important and clearly we’re not going to freeze benefits, that is very clear.” > But asked an hour later if lifting the benefits freeze was costed in the manifesto, he said: "We have not made a commitment on that. > > "The commitment I make is that I do understand the perverse effects of the cap, and we will be dealing with that in the context of more affordable secure housing and high wages through the living wage.” Given that Corbyn got his early boost in the 2015 leadership campaign by refusing to abstain on the bill introducing this benefits freeze, this is quite something. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/384 "2017-05-16T15:04:17Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > Well, that’s competitive! I would love to see how that influenced inward investment as against the loss of tax revenue. > > Interesting article generally. For me, it demonstrates (again!) the lie of austerity - at the levels of CT George Osborne was aiming for it is nothing to do with being competitive and everything to do with shareholder value. Really, 18% when German and French rates are 30% … It looked very much like class war and it is even more interesting to think that is where we’d be without Brexit. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/385 "2017-05-16T15:51:16Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > For me, it demonstrates (again!) the lie of austerity - at the levels of CT George Osborne was aiming for it is nothing to do with being competitive and everything to do with shareholder value. Really, 18% when German and French rates are 30% … > > It looked very much like class war and it is even more interesting to think that is where we’d be without Brexit. We’re discussing the Labour manifesto like it matters - we know the Tories are going to win. Brexit or not, I’m not sure May is planning to reverse corporation tax cuts: [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/21/theresa-may-to-offer-business-an-olive-branch-with-hint-of-futur/](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/21/theresa-may-to-offer-business-an-olive-branch-with-hint-of-futur/). I’m pretty sure there’s a strong Tory faction that wants them lowered further as part of the post-Brexit settlement. ETA: No disagreement that Osborne’s tax and benefits policy was ideology driven! ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/386 "2017-05-16T15:54:16Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > at the levels of CT George Osborne was aiming for it is nothing to do with being competitive and everything to do with shareholder value. Really, 18% when German and French rates are 30% … You might also mention - amongst many others - Ireland at 12.5% and Canada at between 10.5% and 26.5%. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/387 "2017-05-16T16:28:12Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > We’re discussing the Labour manifesto like it matters - we know the Tories are going to win. Brexit or not, I’m not sure May is planning to reverse corporation tax cuts: [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/21/theresa-may-to-offer-business-an-olive-branch-with-hint-of-futur/](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/21/theresa-may-to-offer-business-an-olive-branch-with-hint-of-futur/). I’m pretty sure there’s a strong Tory faction that wants them lowered further as part of the post-Brexit settlement. I think the first thing is to create a credible opposition while, at the same time, putting these issues - austerity, CT, worker rights - in the ring (a) draws out the Tories and (b) causes them internal discord. The Tories are exposed on so much, it’s important to try and hold them and their manifesto to account. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/388 "2017-05-16T16:33:36Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > You might also mention - amongst many others - Ireland at 12.5% and Canada at between 10.5% and 26.5%. I have no interest in Ireland whoring itself around the world. Leading a race to the bottom is the oldest and saddest trick in the tax book. It it wasn’t so unappealing as a base, Ireland should be ashamed. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/389 "2017-05-16T16:50:23Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > We’re discussing the Labour manifesto like it matters - we know the Tories are going to win. There’s still over three weeks to go. That’s plenty of time for the Tories to cock it up. Just wait until Boris escapes the dungeons. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/390 "2017-05-16T19:14:26Z")
Thanks for the reminder. Time to go check his padlocks… ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/391 "2017-05-16T19:26:16Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > I have no interest in Ireland whoring itself around the world. Leading a race to the bottom is the oldest and saddest trick in the tax book. It it wasn’t so unappealing as a base, Ireland should be ashamed. Then you might consider that Hong Kong has a rate of 16.5% and Singapore 17% (8.5% up to S$300K). The UK is in competition with every country for business and you need to recognise that. The UK earns that by providing services like a strong legal system, a strong banking system, a strong insurance system, an educated work force, excellent infrastructure and so on, all of which need to be funded, but it can’t charge too much. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/392 "2017-05-16T20:04:05Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Then you might consider that Hong Kong has a rate of 16.5% and Singapore 17% (8.5% up to S$300K). The UK is in competition with every country for business and you need to recognise that. The UK earns that by providing services like a strong legal system, a strong banking system, a strong insurance system, an educated work force, excellent infrastructure and so on, all of which need to be funded, but it can’t charge too much. The UK is competing as the European base for international companies. So, add to your list the English language, and the right time zone, the quality of (private) education system for the children of workers at international companies, all the multi-level attractions of London, and world class business and social discourse, the best travel links in the world, etc, etc,etc. Thee is no single environment in the world like London. For access to that, international companies will still pay less than they would in Berlin or Paris. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/393 "2017-05-16T22:39:27Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > The UK is competing as the European base for international companies. > > So, add to your list the English language, and the right time zone, the quality of (private) education system for the children of workers at international companies, all the multi-level attractions of London, and world class business and social discourse, the best travel links in the world, etc, etc,etc. > > Thee is no single environment in the world like London. > > For access to that, international companies will still pay less than they would in Berlin or Paris. They’ll be on the wrong side of the Single Market. The UK will have to make itself mighty attractive to sweeten such a bitter pill. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/394 "2017-05-17T00:03:20Z")
I’ve just started reading the Labour manifesto and I’m not impressed. They’re channelling Gordon Brown with their financial review and who exactly is going to fund this £250B investment fund and how much are they going to demand in return? And they’re taking the wrong tack by attacking the rich. They should be concentrating on helping the poor. Any poor person with intelligence - and that’s a lot of them - is going to think, “I may be poor now, but I might not be in the future. And my children / grandchildren might grow to be rich.” ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/395 "2017-05-17T09:00:40Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’ve just started reading the Labour manifesto and I’m not impressed. They’re channelling Gordon Brown with their financial review and who exactly is going to fund this £250B investment fund and how much are they going to demand in return? a) People who buy government bonds as part of their money management/investment strategy b) The current yield (return) on 10-year government bonds is [1.11%](https://www.bloomberg.com/markets/rates-bonds/government-bonds/uk). This isn’t PFI, when the government got private companies to build hospitals and paid them over the odds to lease them. That was a rip off. But it was done to pretend that the government wasn’t actually borrowing money. This is straight up issuing of government debt. Investors don’t get into it to make money. They get into it to keep their money safe. There is a lot of demand for this (currently, if you hold a UK 10 year bond with a face value of £1000, you can sell it in the market for £1,312). For the government, money is incredibly cheap right now. And as long as the return on their investment is greater than the interest of the debt, borrowing to invest makes sound financial sense. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/396 "2017-05-17T09:16:29Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > a) People who buy government bonds as part of their money management/investment strategy But £250B is a LOT of money. > [@](#): > > b) The current yield (return) on 10-year government bonds is [1.11%](https://www.bloomberg.com/markets/rates-bonds/government-bonds/uk). So it’s going to cost approx £2.8B per year. I haven’t seen where that is costed in. Likely I’ve missed it. > [@](#): > > This isn’t PFI, when the government got private companies to build hospitals and paid them over the odds to lease them. That was a rip off. But it was done to pretend that the government wasn’t actually borrowing money. This is straight up issuing of government debt. Investors don’t get into it to make money. They get into it to keep their money safe. There is a lot of demand for this (currently, if you hold a UK 10 year bond with a face value of £1000, you can sell it in the market for £1,312). For the government, money is incredibly cheap right now. And as long as the return on their investment is greater than the interest of the debt, borrowing to invest makes sound financial sense. That makes a lot more sense. Still, the money has to come from somewhere and that is an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/397 "2017-05-17T09:24:18Z")
The BBC have an interesting article [here](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39922798) pointing out that an extra 3M people voted in the Brexit referendum over the 2015 General Election and nobody knows whether they were pro-Leave, pro-Remain, or a mixture. If they vote this time around, they will be a real wild card. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/398 "2017-05-17T09:37:32Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > And they’re taking the wrong tack by attacking the rich. They should be concentrating on helping the poor. The question is, who pays for it? ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/399 "2017-05-17T10:02:01Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > But £250B is a LOT of money. To you and me maybe. To a major nation state over 5 years, it’s not huge. > [@](#): > > So it’s going to cost approx £2.8B per year. I haven’t seen where that is costed in. Likely I’ve missed it. It’s the other side of the equation - the money is being borrowed to purchase an asset, which itself generates returns. You borrow £250Bn due interest, buy £250Bn worth of shares which pay a dividend… it balances out. Net impact on deficit is zero. This is (apparently) how the ONS and international accounting standards treat it. > [@](#): > > That makes a lot more sense. Still, the money has to come from somewhere and that is an issue. The risk isn’t the borrowing per se. The risk is that the government doesn’t run an energy company as efficiently as the private sector. This could be deliberate (subsidising lower prices for the poor) as well as inadvertent. But simply borrowing money to buy an equivalent amount of shares isn’t itself a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/400 "2017-05-17T10:18:38Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > It’s the other side of the equation - the money is being borrowed to purchase an asset, which itself generates returns. Well, you hope it does. There’s always a risk, and with a large government fund, there’s the risk it will go to cronies and troughers. Remember the Banker’s Bailout? ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/401 "2017-05-17T11:38:01Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Well, you hope it does. There’s always a risk, and with a large government fund, there’s the risk it will go to cronies and troughers. Remember the Banker’s Bailout? That wasn’t cronyism, that was making sure people could get paid. Suppliers get paid on credit. Employees get paid on credit (week or month in arrears) Business get payroll cash on credit. There was a genuine, high risk that credit would dry up and the hit to the economy from that would be horrific. We should never have been in that situation. But it wasn’t just about keeping bankers’ bonuses flowing. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2017, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/402 "2017-05-17T11:49:46Z")
If the Tories do win 1/4 of the Seats in Scotland as [opinion polls suggest then where does that leave](http://news.sky.com/story/tory-optimism-grows-in-scotland-after-very-dark-years-10875063) 1. Labour who have depended on Scotland to form Governments (with the exception of Blair’s first two terms) 2. The Independance Referendum demand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690.md?page=21)