# UK Snap Election: 8 June 2017 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 18, 2017, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690 "2017-04-18T10:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/121 "2017-04-22T13:35:30Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Where do you get that from? Even the most ardent Remainer doesn’t deny the EU has problems and Britain’s the awkward squad. But years of being the squeaky wheel got Britain tons of grease, in the form of a Rebate, CAP and CFP reform, and UK-led deregulation and energy and electricity union. Signs were pointing the UK’s way, despite Leave scaremongering. And given that UK resentment of remote Brussels being echoed even in places like Holland, our case would only get stronger. The response from The E.U. to challenges and problems is “Greater Integration”. The response to times of unity and agreement is “Greater Integration”. It has never taken a backward step and shows no sign of doing so. The response to the UK leaving is…surprise surprise…“Greater Integration” > [@](#): > > A narrow Remain victory would not have led to ‘hard Remain’ and would have made it clear that Britain was in the EU only for the practical perks and not for the ‘European dream’, which is a thoroughly British attitude. Given new laws making it harder for Governments to sign EU treaties that expand EU powers, the UK would have had masses of power to prevent changes it disliked. Which new laws make it harder to expand EU powers and how? > [@](#): > > What you fear the EU will become is now infinitely _more_ likely with the UK out. And we’ll be less sovereign because of our inability to influence it I don’t buy that we have had any great influence over the direction of Europe, I suspect we have been tolerated and indulged. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/122 "2017-04-22T13:41:41Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I live in an area of south-east england that produces some excellent wine, the same chalky ground that underlies the champagne region. I’ve heard the sparkling wines are excellent (can’t really drink fizz though, sadly). The climate will be pretty similar too? But wine production in England is unlikely to replace the EU imports. Redwood is there to remind us that wine from other proper English-speaking countries is available, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/123 "2017-04-22T13:48:48Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I don’t buy that we have had any great influence over the direction of Europe, I suspect we have been tolerated and indulged. Margaret Thatcher’s delegate to the Delors Commission, Arthur Cockfield, wrote the white paper that formed the basis of the Single European Act, which led to the creation of the single market as we know it. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/124 "2017-04-22T15:42:19Z")
As an American, I just don’t see how the self-rule stuff is different from the States Rights argument. Yes, decisions are being made in “Berlin”, but your representative contribute to those decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/125 "2017-04-22T15:53:28Z")
Here’s an interesting number-crunching article from the Telegraph, indicating that May is targeting Labour Brexit seats with previous Labour majorities of 9,000 or less. Article suggests that if she is successful in this approach, she could end up with a Commons majority of 100+, instead of the 17 seat majority she currently has. I find it odd, though, that none of the maps include Northern Ireland. Is that because Northern Ireland is firmly Remain, so not worth May’s efforts under this strategy? [General Election 2017 key target seats: How Theresa May could take 58 Brexit-backing Labour seats](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/target-seats-ones-watch-general-election-2017how-theresa-may/) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/126 "2017-04-22T15:54:29Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > As an American, I just don’t see how the self-rule stuff is different from the States Rights argument. Yes, decisions are being made in “Berlin”, but your representative contribute to those decisions. It implies that the UK is simply a state of the EU; a clear demotion. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/127 "2017-04-22T16:07:21Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The response from The E.U. to challenges and problems is “Greater Integration”. The response to times of unity and agreement is “Greater Integration”. It has never taken a backward step and shows no sign of doing so. The response to the UK leaving is…surprise surprise…“Greater Integration” _Some_ think that, yes, but not all. That’s like assuming everyone in Britain favours privatising the NHS because of one or two prominent Brits mentioned. Fact is, the EU is the creature of the Member States and powers are conferred by them through Treaties. Another facet is a deep reluctant (understandable) to permit variants in integration, as it would become a nightmare to manage. Any expansion of powers is because the Member States _want_ them, or find them a worthy enough compromise for the other goodies they get in return. > [@](#): > > Which new laws make it harder to expand EU powers and how? Didn’t they enact a law last year requiring a referendum on any future EU treaty that involves expanding EU powers? > [@](#): > > I don’t buy that we have had any great influence over the direction of Europe, I suspect we have been tolerated and indulged. I’ve given you plenty of examples and **Baron Greenback** another; I think case is closed on that. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/128 "2017-04-22T16:08:59Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > As an American, I just don’t see how the self-rule stuff is different from the States Rights argument. Yes, decisions are being made in “Berlin”, but your representative contribute to those decisions. It’s not even _true_. The EU is managed from Brussels, with some offices in Luxembourg. I can only guess that UTJ is implying that somehow the German Government has a controlling influence over EU institutions. Such a claim rightly invites ridicule, which UTJ interprets as metropolitan elite arrogance for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/129 "2017-04-22T16:10:06Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Here’s an interesting number-crunching article from the Telegraph, indicating that May is targeting Labour Brexit seats with previous Labour majorities of 9,000 or less. Article suggests that if she is successful in this approach, she could end up with a Commons majority of 100+, instead of the 17 seat majority she currently has. > > I find it odd, though, that none of the maps include Northern Ireland. Is that because Northern Ireland is firmly Remain, so not worth May’s efforts under this strategy? > > [General Election 2017 key target seats: How Theresa May could take 58 Brexit-backing Labour seats](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/target-seats-ones-watch-general-election-2017how-theresa-may/) It’s because Northern Ireland’s party system is utterly different from the rest of the UK’s. The Tories, Labour and Lib Dems don’t stand candidates there. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/130 "2017-04-22T16:11:16Z")
I’ve noticed both UTJ and Novelty Bobble completely sideline requests for evidence of the economic soundness of Brexit and instead reply with complaints about the level of EU integration. These complaints aren’t entirely unjustified, but they’re irrelevant, and again prove my point. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/131 "2017-04-22T18:59:49Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > I’ve noticed both UTJ and Novelty Bobble completely sideline requests for evidence of the economic soundness of Brexit and instead reply with complaints about the level of EU integration. ahem > [@](#): > > Economic changes and upheavals will definitely occur in the UK as a result of brexit Those are my words, I suspect (and I know) that many think brexit will not be an easy ride but that it is worth in order to have full control over the country. Having a slightly worse economic outcome to regain full control seems a perfectly legitimate position to take. You also seem to be assuming that I voted for Brexit, I didn’t, I just don’t blindly assume the worst of those that did, nor that the E.U. is an unalloyed success, nor that we would definitely have a better time if we remained. I also note that other countries in the world manage to survive quite nicely while not being a member of a supranational organisation. On balance I thought that remaining and rolling back the E.U. was the better option and I also had a sneaking suspicion that major economic shock to the E.U. would help our case. Now we’ll never know. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/132 "2017-04-22T19:07:34Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Margaret Thatcher’s delegate to the Delors Commission, Arthur Cockfield, wrote the white paper that formed the basis of the Single European Act, which led to the creation of the single market as we know it. From the Wiki > [@](#): > > Lord Cockfield resigned from the cabinet in September 1984 to join the European Commission as commissioner for Internal Market, Tax Law and Customs under Jacques Delors, and a Vice-President of the first Delors Commission. He was expected to follow Margaret Thatcher’s eurosceptic line, but became a driving force in laying the groundwork for the creation of the Single European Market in 1992. Only a few months after he arrived in Brussels, he produced a mammoth white paper listing 300 barriers to trade, with a timetable for them to be abolished. He was not selected[clarification needed] to serve a second term, and was replaced by Leon Brittan That does not read as though he was dancing to the tune of the UK government of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/133 "2017-04-22T19:12:39Z")
I shall move away from the Brexit distraction to point to[this polling](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/22/opinium-observer-poll-conservatives-way-ahead-of-labour) reported in the Guardian. It shows Labour doing very badly and the Lib Dems and tories doing very nicely on a hard anti-brexit stance and also off the back off a falling UKIP vote. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/134 "2017-04-22T19:40:13Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That does not read as though he was dancing to the tune of the UK government of the time. Well, he really was, in the job he was sent to do anyway. British foreign policy has long been about trade, and Thatcher was no different in that sense. She did, of course, not like the more social aspects, but that’s by the by. This is a decent recap: > **[Margaret Thatcher: the critical architect of European integration - UK in a...](https://ukandeu.ac.uk/margaret-thatcher-the-critical-architect-of-european-integration/)** > > Dr Helene Von Bismarck argues that if we speculate about Thatcher’s opinion on the EU referendum, we should embrace a nuanced view of her historic legacy. I hope no-one’s delicate Brexit sensibilities will be too hurt by reading an article by someone called Helene Von Bismarck. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/135 "2017-04-22T20:32:58Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > I hope no-one’s delicate Brexit sensibilities will be too hurt by reading an article by someone called Helene Von Bismarck. 😉 I don’t care what flavour your politics are, that’s a great name! ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/136 "2017-04-22T20:53:03Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I don’t care what flavour your politics are, that’s a great name! It’s actually quite pleasing to say out loud, which is something I totally haven’t been doing while doing the washing up, oh no, not me. It’s a name of two halves. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/137 "2017-04-22T21:36:08Z")
There’s lots of polling out tonight on behalf of the Sunday papers. If I find a good summary I’ll post it, rather than just post a bunch of tweets from political journos/polling orgs It’s fair to say that there’s not a lot of good news for Labour. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/138 "2017-04-22T22:53:40Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > It’s because Northern Ireland’s party system is utterly different from the rest of the UK’s. The Tories, Labour and Lib Dems don’t stand candidates there. Did not know that, thank-you! Follow-up: do the Northern Irish parties have informal alliances with the parties in Great Britain? Or are they mainly occupied with the Northern Ireland / Republic of Ireland issues? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2017, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/139 "2017-04-22T23:43:10Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Follow-up: do the Northern Irish parties have informal alliances with the parties in Great Britain? Or are they mainly occupied with the Northern Ireland / Republic of Ireland issues? Historically: Sinn Fein don’t take their seats in Westminster at all SDLP usually voted with Labour UUP, DUP usually voted with the Tories But it’s a whole different landscape, to be honest ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2017, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690/140 "2017-04-23T07:45:41Z")
Historically speaking, the Conservatives were the party of the Union, so the N. Ireland Unionists were traditionally Tory-leaning on UK-wide issues. But, very crudely and roughly speaking, the DUP developed a more working-class-oriented alternative to the (perceived to be posher and marginally more open to liberal compromises) UUP, so have a less Tory attitude to fiscal austerity, shall we say. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/uk-snap-election-8-june-2017/784690.md?page=8)