# Ukraine and Netherlands, two odd countries **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 24, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387 "2010-06-24T17:58:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/41 "2010-06-25T16:28:18Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > How do you add a plural or possessive marker in English (an “s”) and make it flow in a sentence? Same basic idea, except with a “v” sound that happens to be broken out into a separate word [edit: and precedes the word being modified rather than follows it.] And … as in English, there are epithentic vowels involved. In Russian speech, that “v” flows into sentences with ease when followed by a super-brief schwa. Just like the schwa that actually gets spelled with an “e” in English “hous **e** s” ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/42 "2010-06-25T16:43:53Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > I’ve never heard Yes being called “the Yes”, but isn’t The Who’s correct name just “Who”? What? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/43 "2010-06-25T16:55:32Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > I’ve never heard Yes being called “the Yes”, but isn’t The Who’s correct name just “Who”? No. The name of the band is The Who, with capitalization. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/44 "2010-06-25T17:13:41Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > What? I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![tr0psn4j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@tr0psn4j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tr0psn4j)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/45 "2010-06-25T17:20:39Z")
…help The Iraq and The Asian Countries, so we will be able to build up our future, for our children. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/46 "2010-06-25T17:27:08Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > I’ve never heard Yes being called “the Yes”, but isn’t The Who’s correct name just “Who”? Vinyl fans may be aware of ‘The Pink Floyd’. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/47 "2010-06-25T17:28:48Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > The Ukraine is East Slavic for “the Southlands” ‘Yugoslavia’ meant ‘South Slavia’ or something similar. Are the first syllables cognate? ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/48 "2010-06-25T17:36:41Z")
Speaking of The Netherlands, why is the city there called “The Hague”? I can’t readily think of another _city_ with an article. > [@Rigamarole](#): > > I wouldn’t expect “the” to be part of the official Russian name, seeing as there are no articles in Russian… 😉 That explains a lot. A guy who works for me is Russian and when I edit his documentation I always have to add articles in places where he leaves them out. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/49 "2010-06-25T17:37:53Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > I don’t know. No, The Guess Who. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/50 "2010-06-25T17:49:18Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Speaking of The Netherlands, why is the city there called “The Hague”? I can’t readily think of another _city_ with an article. There used to be “The Bronx,” but the Postal Service now insists on just “Bronx,” I think. ---
**Author:** ![tr0psn4j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@tr0psn4j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tr0psn4j)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/51 "2010-06-25T17:55:36Z")
> [@Scheidt-Hoch](#): > > Vinyl fans may be aware of ‘The Pink Floyd’. He’s very good! ---
**Author:** ![Anaptyxis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anaptyxis/32/3171_2.png) [@Anaptyxis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaptyxis)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/52 "2010-06-25T18:09:42Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > The Ukraine is East Slavic for “the Southlands” – and as such was the name applied by the Russians to their fertile southern provinces, where they spoke the related language “Little Russian” (as opposed to their western provinces, which were White Russia). (Granted Russian doesn’t use articles; most educated Russians spoke French, and many German and/or English as well, all of which do.) > > Ukrainians, understandably miffed at being described only by parallel with Russia, pushed first for recognition of Ukrainian as a distinct language under that name, then, when the USSR broke up, for the national name in languages with articles to be simply “Ukrainia” or “Ukraine” without the article. Just saw this thread today, so I have a little catching up to do. The name Ukraine is derived roughly from the East Slavic word “edge” or “border” – not “south”.\* Hence one can rationalize the preposition на, rather than в, since you’re “on” a border rather than “in” it. (Not that all choices where the preposition is concerned are logical, or easily rationalized, mind you; sorry to break it to you, **Crescend**. 🙂 ) The terms “Little Russian” and “White Russian” bely a very Moscow-centric view of history, I am compelled to add. Ukraine and Belarus have had a [long and interesting past](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine), not all of it under the thumb of Russia. Our lay terminology in English for those lands and languages arrived through the intermediary of imperial Russia and should be laid to rest. Moreover, I also want to point out that Ukraine did enjoy a brief moment of independence during WWI before being incorporated into the Soviet Union in 1922. The dropping of the noun article “the” before the English name of the country was a post-1991 gesture to make a conceptual break between the Soviet republic and the independent state. Despite Ukrainian and Russian not having noun articles, they’re certainly aware of their existence in English and have opinions about whether they should be used. And modern Ukrainian now favors “в Украïни” rather than “на Украïни”. Finally, on the pronunciation of the preposition в, there is in fact no epenthetic vowel inserted between it and a single word-initial consonant (sorry **bordelond** ). This is evidenced by the fact that you get regressive voice assimilation of the preposition; e.g., before voiceless consonants the в is devoiced to [f]. This devoicing would not happen in the presence of an intervening vowel. You do get an epenthetic vowel if the following word starts with a consonant cluster; it is spelled in the orthography: во вторник ‘on Tuesday (Russian)’. \ ***Scheidt-Hoch** , you’re correct, the Slavic root for “south” is _jug-_ ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/53 "2010-06-25T18:53:24Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > No. The name of the band is The Who, with capitalization. Apparently, Pet Shop Boys prefer to write their name without an article, but they use the article in speech (e.g. at concerts) and in the song “We’re the Pet Shop Boys” (which amazingly enough is a cover). > [@](#): > > Speaking of The Netherlands, why is the city there called “The Hague”? I can’t readily think of another city with an article. I think it’s just one of those accidents: it’s one of the few city names with a definite article in another language (Den Haag) that gets translated into English (and other languages: _La Haye, L’Aia_…). Other names with articles - Le Mans, Le Havre, L’Aquila, or for that matter Los Angeles and Las Vegas - get left in the original language. A few other well-known cities have exceptional articles in other languages that don’t occur in English, such as _Le Caire_ (Cairo), _La Mecque_ (Mecca), and _Le Pirée_ (Piraeus) in French. FWIW, there’s also The Pas, Manitoba, and The Dalles, Oregon. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Dave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Great\_Dave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Dave)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/54 "2010-06-25T18:53:25Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Speaking of The Netherlands, why is the city there called “The Hague”? I can’t readily think of another _city_ with an article. Dar es Salaam? Was it ever called the Transjordan? How about the Levant? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/55 "2010-06-25T20:40:58Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > I don’t know. None of them had a third bass! ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/56 "2010-06-25T20:50:16Z")
> [@Anaptyxis](#): > > Just saw this thread today, so I have a little catching up to do. > > The name Ukraine is derived roughly from the East Slavic word “edge” or “border” – not “south”.\* Hence one can rationalize the preposition на, rather than в, since you’re “on” a border rather than “in” it. (Not that all choices where the preposition is concerned are logical, or easily rationalized, mind you; sorry to break it to you, **Crescend**. 🙂 ) > > The terms “Little Russian” and “White Russian” bely a very Moscow-centric view of history, I am compelled to add. Ukraine and Belarus have had a [long and interesting past](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine), not all of it under the thumb of Russia. Our lay terminology in English for those lands and languages arrived through the intermediary of imperial Russia and should be laid to rest. Moreover, I also want to point out that Ukraine did enjoy a brief moment of independence during WWI before being incorporated into the Soviet Union in 1922. > > The dropping of the noun article “the” before the English name of the country was a post-1991 gesture to make a conceptual break between the Soviet republic and the independent state. Despite Ukrainian and Russian not having noun articles, they’re certainly aware of their existence in English and have opinions about whether they should be used. And modern Ukrainian now favors “в Украïни” rather than “на Украïни”. > > Finally, on the pronunciation of the preposition в, there is in fact no epenthetic vowel inserted between it and a single word-initial consonant (sorry **bordelond** ). This is evidenced by the fact that you get regressive voice assimilation of the preposition; e.g., before voiceless consonants the в is devoiced to [f]. This devoicing would not happen in the presence of an intervening vowel. > > You do get an epenthetic vowel if the following word starts with a consonant cluster; it is spelled in the orthography: во вторник ‘on Tuesday (Russian)’. > > \ ***Scheidt-Hoch** , you’re correct, the Slavic root for “south” is _jug-_ Thanks for the correction and expansion – I’d been given to understand (by a Russian emigré family) that the meaning was something like “Southmarch” (with -march in the ‘borderlands’ sense). Apparently I remembered the wrong half of why they were giving me that example. And, of course, by mentioning “Little Russian” I was intentionally showing the Ukrainians making the point of distinguishing their nation, language, and culture from a Moscow-centric viewpoint and nomenclature. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/57 "2010-06-25T20:51:57Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > [The Hague] is one of the few city names with a definite article in another language (Den Haag) that gets translated into English (and other languages: _La Haye, L’Aia_…). Other names with articles - Le Mans, Le Havre, L’Aquila, or for that matter Los Angeles and Las Vegas - get left in the original language. > > A few other well-known cities have exceptional articles in other languages that don’t occur in English, such as _Le Caire_ (Cairo), _La Mecque_ (Mecca), and _Le Pirée_ (Piraeus) in French. Oh, good point. Cairo has the article in the traditional Arabic name, Al Qahira. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/58 "2010-06-25T20:53:19Z")
Sould we be saying ‘Ukrainia’ rather than ‘Ukraine’ then? I also remember hearing ‘Czechia’ instead of ‘the Czech Republic’ after Czechoslovakia split up, but that doesn’t seem to have stuck in English. Which is odd, sonce we say ‘Slovakia’ without problem. > [@matt\_mcl](#): > > FWIW, there’s also The Pas, Manitoba, and The Dalles, Oregon. And The Soo! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![In\_Winnipeg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a8b319/32.png) [@In\_Winnipeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/In_Winnipeg)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/59 "2010-06-25T21:05:21Z")
“The Iraq”? > [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > I’ve never heard Yes being called “the Yes”, but isn’t The Who’s correct name just “Who”? Well, more properly, it would likely be “The Whom”… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/60 "2010-06-25T21:06:02Z")
Don’t the British sometimes refer to Agentina as “The Argentine”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387.md?page=4)