# Ukraine and Netherlands, two odd countries **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 24, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387 "2010-06-24T17:58:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/61 "2010-06-25T21:43:54Z")
> [@tr0psn4j](#): > > He’s very good! But what if [The The](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_The) dropped a “the”…would they just be “The”? ---
**Author:** ![footballisplayedwithyourfeet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9f8e36/32.png) [@footballisplayedwithyourfeet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/footballisplayedwithyourfeet)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/62 "2010-06-25T22:09:35Z")
> [@Scheidt-Hoch](#): > > ‘Yugoslavia’ meant ‘South Slavia’ or something similar. Are the first syllables cognate? Yes, Yugoslavia means south slavia; it seams reasonable that the first syllable of the Ukraine is related, but I don’t actually know this to be true. > [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Speaking of The Netherlands, why is the city there called “The Hague”? I can’t readily think of another _city_ with an article. The official name of The Hague is 's Gravenhage (probably unpronouncable for you Americans;)), which means ‘the Count’s hedge (or bush)’. This later became just The Hedge (Den Haag) and both are still used (I think 's Gravenhage is used in official matters); given it is ‘den’ and not ‘de’, the abbreviate form goes back quite some years. Also, in dutch we just cal it Nederland; no plural and no equivalent of ‘the’. ---
**Author:** ![Fridgemagnet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/22d042/32.png) [@Fridgemagnet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fridgemagnet)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/63 "2010-06-25T22:40:30Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Also, would it be correct to call them simply “Netherland”? If you’re Dutch, the country is simply “Nederland”. “The Netherlands” is the Anglicisation. However, “The Hague” is closer to the local “Den Hague”. To make up for that, we badly translated “Hoek van Holland” as “Hook of Holland” (hoek means corner). My favourite Dutch placename is the wonderful ['s-Hertogenbosh](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27s-Hertogenbosch), translated as “The Duke’s Forest”, which not only begins with the definite article, you have to get through an apostrophe, a lower-case “s” and a hyphen before you get into the meat of the thing. It took a lot of practice before I could pronounce it, even with help from the locals. And even they normally refer to it as Den Bosch. Where’s a Dutch doper when you need one? There are probably even better names than this, but that’s the best one I know. I should visit more often, it’s a great country. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/64 "2010-06-26T15:53:54Z")
> [@Fridgemagnet](#): > > If you’re Dutch, the country is simply “Nederland”. “The Netherlands” is the Anglicisation. Yes, the country is named “Nederland” currently, but it’s part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands (consisting of the Netherlands, Aruba and the Netherlands’ Antilles). IIRC historically, the name “the (Kingdom of the) Netherlands” (plural) applies to either the low countries (currently Belgium and Netherland) or the Netherlands (European territories) + its colonies. > [@](#): > > My favourite Dutch placename is the wonderful ['s-Hertogenbosh](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27s-Hertogenbosch), translated as “The Duke’s Forest”, which not only begins with the definite article, you have to get through an apostrophe, a lower-case “s” and a hyphen before you get into the meat of the thing. It took a lot of practice before I could pronounce it, even with help from the locals. And even they normally refer to it as Den Bosch. And the alternative name for Den Haag / The Hague is “'s-Gravenhage” - “the Count’s hedge / forest”. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/65 "2010-06-26T17:26:46Z")
> [@footballisplayedwithyourfeet](#): > > Yes, Yugoslavia means south slavia; it seams reasonable that the first syllable of the Ukraine is related, but I don’t actually know this to be true. I’m just taking a stab at this, but as a speaker of Polish and a smattering of Croatian and other Slavic languages the name “Ukraine” to me looks like the concatenation of the preposition “u” (“at”) and the Slavic word for borderland or frontier: [_krajina_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krajina). Looking at [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com)’s [entry](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ukraine), it seems to agree, although with a slightly different (and more accurate, I’m sure) derivation: > [@](#): > > Ukraine > from Rus. Ukraina , lit. “border, frontier,” from u- “at” + krai “edge.” Anyhow, my guess is any connection you see between “jug-” and the first syllable of “Ukraine” is purely coincidental, especially as Ukraine better splits as “U+kraine” not “Uk+raine.” ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/66 "2010-06-26T21:16:40Z")
If we’re going to talk about all these extraneous things with “The” in the title, I’ll point out something I noticed a while back: The Disney Channel started referring to themselves as just DisneyChannel. I noticed the same thing on Star Trek, with the Klingons just becoming Klingons in TNG, and The Enterprise just becoming Enterprise on the titular show. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/67 "2010-06-26T21:21:41Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Anyhow, my guess is any connection you see between “jug-” and the first syllable of “Ukraine” is purely coincidental, especially as Ukraine better splits as “U+kraine” not “Uk+raine.” I agree with your interpretation, fwiw. “Yug” is south, but “uk” isn’t anything, as far as I know. U, however, is a preposition describing location. ---
**Author:** ![\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/eada6e/32.png) [@\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Undecided_Adrian)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/68 "2010-06-26T22:38:46Z")
Further extraneous "the"s: In southern German dialects, names are often preceded by “the”, like “Did you see the Markus?”. It’s not uncommon for small children to refer to themselves like this before they understand the word “I”, because they always hear it that way. One child I know currently calls himself “de Bub” (the boy). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/69 "2010-06-26T23:57:49Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > I agree with your interpretation, fwiw. “Yug” is south, but “uk” isn’t anything, as far as I know. U, however, is a preposition describing location. Sure, but it doesn’t really matter whether “uk” means something now or not. The poster, as I understand it, was making the connection that there might have been a _jug_ -\> _uk_ corruption/change over time. It’s not a totally unreasonable hypothesis, that the word went jug(o)krajina (“south land/country/region,” although I think most constructions of this type would take the adjectival “south” and thus be something more along the lines of _južna krajina_ or similar)-\> ukrajina, but there doesn’t seem to be any evidence for that. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/70 "2010-06-27T00:05:58Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Speaking of The Netherlands, why is the city there called “The Hague”? I can’t readily think of another _city_ with an article. The Dalles, Oregon. > **[The Dalles, Oregon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dalles,_Oregon)** > > The Dalles (/ˈdælz/ ⓘ DALZ) formally the City of the Dalles and also called Dalles City, is an inland port, the county seat of and the largest city in Wasco County, Oregon, United States. The population was 16,010 at the 2020 census, and it is the largest city in Oregon along the Columbia River outside the Portland Metropolitan Area. The Dalles is 75 miles (121 km) east of Portland, within the Columbia River Gorge National Scenic Area. > The area around The Dalles is known to have been a tradin... ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/71 "2010-06-27T00:32:27Z")
> [@ghardester](#): > > The Dalles, Oregon. > > [The Dalles, Oregon - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dalles,_Oregon) Along those lines, plenty of cities with Spanish names have definite articles in them (ie, Los Angeles). We just don’t translate them into English. **pulykamell** , point taken. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/72 "2010-06-27T03:52:32Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > “Government” does not dictate anything about language, usage determines it. That’s as true of German as of French or as any other language. Americans very often get the wrong idea about language regulatory bodies (which most languages have, as a matter of fact); they’re only advisory bodies, nothing more. Given that there are thousands of languages spoken today, I find it highly unlikely that most living languages have regulatory bodies. Perhaps you mean some sort of restricted subset of languages for your “matter of fact”. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/73 "2010-06-27T04:08:37Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Given that there are thousands of languages spoken today, I find it highly unlikely that most living languages have regulatory bodies. Perhaps you mean some sort of restricted subset of languages for your “matter of fact”. Wikipedia has kindly provided us with [list of languages with regulatory bodies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_language_regulators). According to my count, there are 87 languages that have official regulatory bodies; some of them have multiple, competing bodies when the languages are international. Quite a few of them are not widely spoken at all. (Does anyone actually speak Occitan?) This is, of course, nowhere near most of the languages spoken on earth. ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/74 "2010-06-27T06:28:24Z")
> [@Fridgemagnet](#): > > Where’s a Dutch doper when you need one? . What happened to the Mod\*\* Coldfire \*\*IIRC he was Dutch. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/75 "2010-06-27T14:11:56Z")
> [@'\[Undecided](#): > > Adrian;12622519’]Further extraneous "the"s: In southern German dialects, names are often preceded by “the”, like “Did you see the Markus?”. > It’s not uncommon for small children to refer to themselves like this before they understand the word “I”, because they always hear it that way. One child I know currently calls himself “de Bub” (the boy). Catalan does this too: you use articles with people’s first names in third person: _el Joan, la Sofia_. You don’t use the article when addressing the person, though. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/76 "2010-06-27T14:42:57Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Wikipedia has kindly provided us with [list of languages with regulatory bodies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_language_regulators). According to my count, there are 87 languages that have official regulatory bodies; some of them have multiple, competing bodies when the languages are international. Quite a few of them are not widely spoken at all. (Does anyone actually speak Occitan?) > > This is, of course, nowhere near most of the languages spoken on earth. Occitan is still commonly used by about 1.5 million people in southern France, all of whom are also fluent in French but use Occitan in home and community uses. It does not appear to be declining. The relevant central bodies in Paris would term it as no more than dialects of French spoken in small regions, which would be convincing if they had not been using the same descriptors for Alsatian, Flemish, Breton, and Basque. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/77 "2010-06-27T14:48:51Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > Catalan does this too: you use articles with people’s first names in third person: _el Joan, la Sofia_. You don’t use the article when addressing the person, though. I’ve noticed this in the speech forms of some people in American English, not terribly common but understood when used and not confined to one dialectal region, where the definite article is used with a name to express contempt. “And I suppose we have to put up with the Marvin today!” Occasionally, particularly in reference to women, the Romance articles will be borrowed: “Everybody realizes that.” “Not according to la Gloria.” ---
**Author:** ![Anaptyxis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anaptyxis/32/3171_2.png) [@Anaptyxis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaptyxis)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/78 "2010-06-27T15:12:00Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Anyhow, my guess is any connection you see between “jug-” and the first syllable of “Ukraine” is purely coincidental, especially as Ukraine better splits as “U+kraine” not “Uk+raine.” Yep, that’s right. I didn’t realize earlier that there’s some confusion here about that initial “yoo” sound in English. That’s not actually in the original Slavic: Украïна is pronounced “oo-kra-YEEN-a” with no initial jot. There’s no etymological relation whatsoever between that word and the Slavic root for ‘south’. The addition of the “y” in English to make “yoo-KRAIN” is an English innovation. > [@Polycarp](#): > > Thanks for the correction and expansion – I’d been given to understand (by a Russian emigré family) that the meaning was something like “Southmarch” (with -march in the ‘borderlands’ sense). Apparently I remembered the wrong half of why they were giving me that example. And, of course, by mentioning “Little Russian” I was intentionally showing the Ukrainians making the point of distinguishing their nation, language, and culture from a Moscow-centric viewpoint and nomenclature. Oh, no worries. I have a bit of a soapbox I haul out for these occasions, sorry to miss your meaning there. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/79 "2010-06-27T15:29:37Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Speaking of The Netherlands, why is the city there called “The Hague”? I can’t readily think of another _city_ with an article. Los Angeles and Las Vegas. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387/80 "2010-06-27T15:53:17Z")
Die Schweiz, which is what German speakers call Switzerland. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-netherlands-two-odd-countries/544387.md?page=5)