# Ukraine and Russia with Trump Still at the Helm **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 18, 2022, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718 "2022-02-18T03:33:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/41 "2022-02-22T23:32:03Z")
If Trump had been “savvy” enough to propose invading Mexico to make Chihuahua, Coahuila and Tamaulipas “independent” states, I have no doubt the GOP would have enthusiastically backed him. Good thing he’s a moron. ---
**Author:** ![Temporary\_Name](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Temporary\_Name](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Temporary_Name)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/42 "2022-02-23T01:43:04Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > Putin is now saying, ‘It’s independent,’ a large section of Ukraine. I said, ‘How smart is that?’ And he’s gonna go in and be a peacekeeper… We could use that on our southern border. Here’s a guy who’s very savvy. Has it not occurred to the Orange One that Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and Southern California were all a part of Mexico at one time??? Is he suggesting that Mexico should annex those states (which at one time stretched up into Colorado too didn’t it?) and then send Mexican peacekeepers here to protect the southwest from The United States? Because that would be the historically correct direction of seizing land!! Every time Trump opens his mouth I remember that quote: “Never have a battle of wits with an unarmed man.” ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/43 "2022-02-23T06:55:25Z")
As mentioned above, how would it be with Trump at the helm? Trump would be gushing about how smart Putin was. You know, like Trump does. “I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said, ‘This is genius,'” he said. “Putin declares a big portion of the Ukraine — of Ukraine — Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that’s wonderful.” “I said, ‘How smart is that?’ He’s going to go in and be a peacekeeper,” added Trump, who regularly praised and sought close ties with Putin during his time in office. “That’s the strongest peace force. We could use that on our southern border, that’s the strongest peace force I’ve ever seen. There were more army tanks than I’ve ever seen. They’re going to keep peace all right.” > **[Trump on Putin plan to recognize breakaway Ukraine regions: ‘This is genius’](https://wgntv.com/news/trump-on-putin-plan-to-recognize-breakaway-ukraine-regions-this-is-genius/)** > > Former President Trump on Tuesday called Russia’s recognition of two breakaway territories in eastern Ukraine a “genius” move ahead of its military invasion.In an interview o… ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/44 "2022-02-23T09:08:08Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > Trump gave us an indication of how he’d react in an interview today. > > > Putin is now saying, ‘It’s independent,’ a large section of Ukraine. I said, ‘How smart is that?’ And he’s gonna go in and be a peacekeeper… We could use that on our southern border. Here’s a guy who’s very savvy. I was sure this had to be some sort of parody. I stand corrected. There are no words. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/45 "2022-02-23T10:27:24Z")
There is one word that comes to my mind and that word is Traitor. Actually, I think I’ll go with two words because Fucking Traitor just sounds better. ---
**Author:** ![Temporary\_Name](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Temporary\_Name](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Temporary_Name)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/46 "2022-02-23T12:08:01Z")
My comment on the whole business of Trump’s comments concerning Putin’s “genius” is this: He isn’t even hiding that the thing he admires is the spin Putin used to justify bad behavior and criminal use of his military. What Trump admires is that Putin found a way do what he wanted to do (despite the inherent immorality of the move) and to find a semi-plausible excuse for it. What a horrible human being who should not be in charge of a child’s electric train set let alone be commander in chief of the world’s most capable military. And I still cannot believe that I am the only one who mentioned that Mexico was never a part of the United States – but that much of the American Southwest once belonged to Mexico. At least when Putin says all of Ukraine [including the supposed “Independent States”] were once under Russian control there is some truth to it. For Trump to make an equivalence with the Southwest of the United States is - - - so absurd it is just stupid. I hope someone points out to Trump how stupid THAT portion of his comments are. I have no expectation that he can recognize the fact that developing a justifying spin to cover for an illegal act is not so much genius as it is reprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/47 "2022-02-23T13:26:39Z")
> [@Temporary\_Name](#): > > And I still cannot believe that I am the only one who mentioned that Mexico was never a part of the United States – but that much of the American Southwest once belonged to Mexico. Exactly. There’s current support for secession in Texas and other states. It sounds like Trump is supporting Putin recognizing the independence of those states and sending in peacekeeping troops. e.g. [Texas GOP chairman Allen West suggests secession in response to Supreme Court election lawsuit decision - ABC13 Houston](https://abc13.com/secession-texas-to-leave-us-allen-west-gop/8720150/) ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/48 "2022-02-23T13:58:10Z")
There are too many arguments in your post too refute without fisking, which I hate, so late me provide a broad rebuttal. Trump had many business dealings with Russia, he had campaign managers who had dealings with Russia, and he was an admirer of Putin. That is not in dispute. The question you asked is: > [@Temporary\_Name](#): > > If Trump was still President, what would have happened in Ukraine, and would happen in the future? My answer is that Trump would have been Trump; so bombastic, blaming international partners for the situation, poor at diplomacy with Russia, and dreadful as a leader within a coalition trying to form a coordinated response. Much of the rest of this thread are the allegations that Trump was “Putin’s puppet”, and would have his response to the Russia/Ukraine conflict dictated by Putin. 1. I reject the idea that Trump was receiving secret instructions from Putin. I find that idea laughable. The White House is notoriously bad as a place for keeping political secrets. Trump made little effort to enforce privacy of White House operations, and people who left his administration talked openly about the chaos within his operations. But somehow, amidst that environment of exposure, the juiciest secret that the president was being controlled by Russia was kept secret? That idea doesn’t pass the smell test. And that’s before considering the massive US national security apparatus designed to prevent espionage. 2. I reject the idea that Putin had a master plan regarding Trump that he planned to implement during Trump’s second term. It was a surprise that Trump won in 2016, and a surprise about how close he came in 2020. I suppose the idea is that Trump’s handlers decided he got lucky in 2016 and decided to ride that luck in 2020? Having a plan with a very uncertain keystone event strikes me as a not very masterful plan. 3. I reject the idea that there would have been an outside bargain to bribe Trump into approving a Russian action within Ukraine. How on Earth would that bargain have been kept secret? And how would it be enforced? Trump as president and now ex-president is one of the most protected individuals in the world. If Trump has some hidden debts to the Russian government, then those debts should have already been written off by Russia. Or is the idea that Russia has some other item of blackmail that hasn’t been exposed by the press? Trump has a much noted facility of being able to shake off scandals. ---
**Author:** ![Temporary\_Name](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Temporary\_Name](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Temporary_Name)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/49 "2022-02-23T14:23:38Z")
Your rejections are noted, I have filed them in the appropriate place. To some degree, we no longer need to speculate what Trump would have done since he has made statements addressing the matter: 1. Deny it would have happened had he still been president. (I find this claim lacking in credibility) 2. Praise Putin as a genius 3. Admire the spin used to justify the invasion while ignoring the violation of international law and the Minsk Accords. Without meaning any disrespect, understanding your view more fully I am no longer as eager to find agreement with those views as I was earlier. You are entitled to yours – I will hang on to mine. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/50 "2022-02-23T14:27:47Z")
I guess your ideas of compelling evidence are pretty loose when it comes to Trump, rather than the usual expectation of the term. Don’t worry though, that doesn’t disqualify you from being a Democratic Party congressperson. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/51 "2022-02-23T15:14:53Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Witch hunt? Seriously? Yes, seriously. An old woman complained about kids and the kids later got sick. Therefore the old woman is a witch and should be put to death. I guess that’s a witch prosecution, not a witch hunt, but the pursuit of other suspect evidence to justify a suspect claim would be a witch hunt. We’re arguing about two premises: 1) Trump was acting on Russian instructions, and 2) Trump was deliberately acting against Ukraine during his administration in order to benefit Russia. Here’s the post I originally replied to: > [@Aspenglow](#): > > Putin, with Trump’s help, planted hundreds of poison pills for the new Biden administration to cope with in furtherance of Putin’s goals. This included radicalizing the Republican Party; weakening our institutions; propagating muscular propaganda aided by Fox “News” and other media outlets; helping Trump hollow out our intelligence agencies as well as gaining access to sensitive intelligence; driving wedges wherever he could in our NATO alliances. The list is depressingly long. It’s the same playbook Putin uses in his own country. Aspenglow’s diatribe most certainly reads as an anti-Trump, anti-US Conservative rant. Supporting Fox News is planting “poison pills” to support Russia? I don’t watch Fox News - are they pro-Russian at all? Tell me that Trump was pro-Russian, I’ll agree with you. Tell me that he was a Russian agent, I’m going to disbelieve you and ask for proof. Tell me that as a Russian agent, he was deliberately taking actions as president to foster a post 2020 Russian invasion of Ukraine, and I’m going to strongly disbelieve your extraordinary claim and ask for quite substantial proof. Unfortunately, people on this message board are using evidence that Trump was pro-Russian to rule him guilty of far more flagrant charges. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/52 "2022-02-23T15:39:59Z")
> [@Temporary\_Name](#): > > My newest guess is that Putin intends to fully occupy the areas he has just declared to be independent states and let things calm down as that becomes a new normal. Then sometime down the road he will make a half-assed attempt to expand that area for ten minutes - - - and then as a sign of goodwill and peace he will retreat to just occupying those areas and giving the world a complete lack of hostilities as long as he gets to keep his new expanded border (whatever he calls the area-- it will de facto be a part of Mother Russia at that point. I’ll agree with you on this point. Putin is playing a long game. Russia’s strongest assets are their energy and mineral resources. NATO and its allies could easily marginalise Russia, leaving it with China and a few minnows as trading partners if they wished. But few countries, especially not central Europe, want to cut themselves off from Russian resources. So western Europe/NATO mostly ignores small Russian aggressions, and Russia balances their aggressions against the sanctions that result. Over the long term, Russia will view the territorial gains as worth more than the economic hardship. The question is where’s the stopping point for the West? It’s not going to be eastern Ukraine. It probably won’t be the whole of Ukraine. Will it be eastern Latvia? Or the whole of Latvia? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/53 "2022-02-23T15:49:13Z")
> [@Temporary\_Name](#): > > For Trump to make an equivalence with the Southwest of the United States is - - - so absurd it is just stupid. > > I hope someone points out to Trump how stupid THAT portion of his comments are. So it’s perfect for Trump. Nope, nobody will tell him how stupid he is. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/54 "2022-02-23T16:04:47Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Tell me that he was a Russian agent, I’m going to disbelieve you and ask for proof. Tell me that as a Russian agent, he was deliberately taking actions as president to foster a post 2020 Russian invasion of Ukraine, and I’m going to strongly disbelieve your extraordinary claim and ask for quite substantial proof. To me, it isn’t that Trump was actively trying to help Russia, it’s that, his general pro-Putin position (not even pro-Russian, really just specifically pro-Putin), combined with his pathetically weak ego made it stupidly easy to manipulate Trump. Pretty much every serious government in the world realized quite quickly how easy it was to manipulate Trump, but by and large, Russia under Putin was the only one who decided to weaponize this in order to advance their own, largely-anti-American agenda. The combination of Trump’s gullibility and his fawning admiration for Putin was an almost unique opportunity for Russia. It becomes a matter of reading tea leaves to distinguish between a pro-Russian, anti-American action that was deliberate, vs. one that was just Trump being the most useful idiot in history. This also explains why Russia couldn’t just flat out invade Ukraine right away - they weren’t giving orders, they were playing him like a fish caught on a hook. If they make their efforts too obvious, they risk losing the fish before it’s in the boat. Other countries did similar things (See, at least, North Korea, and Canada during the NAFTA renegotiation), but no one else went anywhere near as far as Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/55 "2022-02-23T16:35:42Z")
Was Trump carrying out direct orders from Putin complete with a, “Sir, yes Sir!”? Probably not. Did Putin have a wide variety of carrots and sticks that he used to manipulate Trump? Obviously. There’s a fuck ton of evidence of this. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/56 "2022-02-23T16:41:53Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > Did Putin have a wide variety of carrots and sticks that he used to manipulate Trump? Obviously. There’s a fuck ton of evidence of this. Then you should be able to make a compelling case that will convince a skeptic such as me. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/57 "2022-02-23T16:43:02Z")
Not interested. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/58 "2022-02-23T16:47:07Z")
Forcing Eastern Europeans to suffer has been the basis of two of his marriages. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/59 "2022-02-23T16:48:00Z")
Have a nice day. Hopefully the “fuck ton of evidence” won’t impede any trails you may wish to walk upon. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/60 "2022-02-23T16:59:02Z")
You seem to be having a good time pretending several well known examples of Putin manipulating Trump don’t exist and I’d hate to take that away from you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718.md?page=4)