# Ukraine and Russia with Trump Still at the Helm **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [February 18, 2022, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718 "2022-02-18T03:33:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/121 "2022-02-27T16:59:12Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Trump had dozens of advisors who he yelled at, belittled, and ultimately fired. People such as Bannon, Priebus, Bolton, and several generals who he appointed to cabinet level positions. These advisors, who were in actual positions of influence, had limited success in guiding the agenda of the Trump administration. But your theory is that foreign influencers were more successful to the level that they manipulated US foreign policy? And somehow this was mostly kept quiet other than occasional allegations? I’m fully aware that Trump tried to get the Ukraine government to investigate Joe and Hunter Biden for corruption, and that Trump was impeached for that. I’m sure he’s no fan of Ukraine. But you’re more or less alleging that Trump was steered into anti-Ukrainian positions by Russian agents. I’m not buying that. Trump, when making a decision, was supposedly most influenced by the last person he spoke with before making the decision. And even then, he often had his own agenda which he would pursue regardless of the advice he was receiving. And most of his decisions were focused on the short-term benefit to Trump. But somehow Russian agents were successful in guiding Trump on policies that would hurt Ukraine in 2022? I don’t believe that anyone had a long-term ability to influence Trump, least of all Russian agents he only wanted to see when he wanted something from them. You’re moving the goalposts. I don’t believe I claimed that the actions Trump was manipulated into by foreign agents had a direct bearing on what’s happening in Ukraine now. There are two specific actions that Trump was manipulated into taking that were intended to damage the pro-Western Ukrainian government. There may be others, but I’ll focus on these two for now. The first was the campaign to get Marie Yovanovitch removed from her position as ambassador to Ukraine. Somewhat ironically, the two Russian agents, Parnas and Furman of the esteemed company Fraud Guarantee, involved in this initially tried to do it the old-fashioned way - they funneled Trump a bunch of Russian money ( they were arrested and charged for this) and asked him to fire her. Trump said yes. This is on tape. But Trump didn’t do it then . Trump’s not traditionally corrupt in the quid pro quo way, because once he has his quid, you’re probably not getting your quo. So they had to resort to the things that work with Trump……that Ambassador, she’s a Never-Trumper. She said bad things about you. She didn’t want to hang your picture in the embassy. . And it worked. The other was the disinformation campaign run by Russian agent Andriy Derkach, which was ultimately responsible for Trump withholding military aid to Ukraine. Derkach was sanctioned by the Treasury Department for running a disinformation/ misinformation campaign intended to turn Trump against Ukraine. You remember………_Ukraine is in cahoots with the Bidens!_ _Ukraine cheated in 2016 for Hillary!_ Was it completely successful? No. But it was successful enough to unjustly deprive Ukraine of much needed military aid at a crucial time. And it turned Trump against Ukraine, or as you said, steered him into an anti-Ukrainian position. I don’t know if it qualifies as manipulating US foreign policy, because that implies official channels and a connection with reality, but those are your words, not mine. Did these things affect Ukraine in 2022. Who knows? I never said they did. I don’t really think Congress, in 2019, should’ve said _”Well, these things Trump did might not hurt Ukraine much when Russia tries to start WW3 in a couple of years, so nothing to see here”_ Just a reminder, I’m pushing back against your contention that all this was so right and so normal that it was _crazy_ to even _think_ about investigating it, as evidenced by your framing of any investigation of Trump as a witch hunt. You haven’t come anywhere close to defending this point. And since, in your subsequent posts, you seem to want to deflect with Biden sucks, he couldn’t stop the war ….I dunno. From where I sit on Sunday morning, it seems the strategy of giving Ukraine just enough help so that they can kick Russia’s ass by themselves, letting Zelensky emerge as the savior of Western Democracy while NATO unifies and rallies and goes wild with sanctions — is making Biden look pretty good. I really think Putin thought his disinformation campaigns, portraying Ukraine as woke Neo-Nazi Hillary loving fascists committing atrocities on democracy-loving Russians, would buy him the support of most of the Republican Party - but it seems only to have grabbed the craziest of the crazies. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/122 "2022-02-27T17:03:41Z")
Don’t forget getting the US to pull out of Open Skies. It’s not the biggest deal in the world, but Trump was comically easy to manipulate in that instance. ---
**Author:** ![SingleMalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/singlemalt/32/3961_2.png) [@SingleMalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleMalt)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/123 "2022-02-27T17:14:29Z")
Also, the Trump campaign worked to soften the anti-Russia/pro-Ukraine plank in the Republican platform in 2016, removing language supporting providing military assistance to Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/124 "2022-02-27T17:15:19Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Trump’s not traditionally corrupt in the quid pro quo way, because once he has his quid, you’re probably not getting your quo. It’s so nice to be on the same board as you! ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/125 "2022-02-27T18:25:32Z")
“If Democrats want to fight for democracy abroad, they should start with the democracy that is under threat right next door, a place called Canada.” > **[With the world watching Putin, Trump targets Trudeau](https://www.politico.com/news/2022/02/27/trump-trudeau-cpac-canada-protest-00012102)** > > "The tyranny we have witnessed in Canada in recent weeks should shock and dismay people all over the world," Trump said Saturday night. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/126 "2022-02-27T18:47:01Z")
Said the guy who gassed peaceful protesters to clear a path to his upside down bible photo-op. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/127 "2022-02-27T19:16:51Z")
I dunno, maybe he has a point. I haven’t been allowed to vote since Trudeau triggered the Emergency Act. Is preventing voters from having a say at the ballot box not democracy under threat? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/128 "2022-02-27T19:30:34Z")
Have there been elections since then? It’s sarcasm, right? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2022, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/129 "2022-02-27T19:40:55Z")
OMG you’ve just made me realize that he’s forbidden not only me from voting, but everyone else in the country as well! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2022, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/130 "2022-02-28T01:19:10Z")
Last election, I was forbidden from voting against Trudeau! In fact, he wasn’t even on my ballot! Chicanery! Someone should look into this! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2022, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/131 "2022-02-28T01:23:58Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > “If Democrats want to fight for democracy abroad, they should start with the democracy that is under threat right next door, a place called Canada.” The Emergencies Act is now over. The truckers have left Ottawa. The organizers are awaiting trial. It’s over. Done. Finished. Nothing left to see. Nobody was stomped by a horse. Police cleared the streets effectively and professionally. The “convoy” was very unpopular in Canada. It remains so. Trumps comments are just another sad chapter in his legacy of bullshit and lies. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2022, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/132 "2022-02-28T01:27:26Z")
I was afraid someone would quote that with my avatar above it 😵 My favorite part of that is “a place called Canada.” As if it’s this strange land most of us may never have heard of before. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2022, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/133 "2022-02-28T01:30:49Z")
“There is a place called Canada. Nobody knew of this before I found it. Now people are talking about it.” -Donald Moron Trump ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2022, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/134 "2022-02-28T01:32:58Z")
“I was drawing a mustache on Maine with my Sharpee, and there it was!” ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2022, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/135 "2022-02-28T01:36:18Z")
Trump really is just going along with Republican tradition. If there is trouble coming from a certain country… then turn around and attack a different county, pretending that this will solve your problem. I’m starting to seriously think that if Trump was still president, he’d be ordering a military attack on Canada right at this very moment. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/136 "2022-03-02T13:32:28Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Both the result of Ukraine telling Putin to go tell Hell. Something they are less likely to do with a Russian stooge in the White House. So Putin only invades when it’s more likely there will be consequences for Russia? That doesn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/137 "2022-03-02T13:47:34Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Was there a Russian government guided advisor to Trump that strongly influenced his administrations policies? > [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > Gigantic straw man. I’m arguing against this statement: > [@Aspenglow](#): > > Putin, with Trump’s help, planted hundreds of poison pills for the new Biden administration to cope with in furtherance of Putin’s goals. This included radicalizing the Republican Party; weakening our institutions; propagating muscular propaganda aided by Fox “News” and other media outlets; helping Trump hollow out our intelligence agencies as well as gaining access to sensitive intelligence; driving wedges wherever he could in our NATO alliances. The list is depressingly long. It’s the same playbook Putin uses in his own country. So you could have provided evidence of Trump “having planted hundreds of poison pills for the new Biden administration to cope with in furtherance of Putin’s goals.” But I suppose it’s much easier to refute skepticism to conspiracy theories acquainting Trumps actions with Russian orders, rather than provide proof of those theories. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/138 "2022-03-02T13:51:56Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > I’m arguing against this statement: If that’s the case, you’re doing a horrible job of it. You invented, “a Russian government guided advisor to Trump,” out of whole cloth. Classic straw man. ---
**Author:** ![Temporary\_Name](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Temporary\_Name](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Temporary_Name)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/139 "2022-03-02T14:14:23Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > So Putin only invades when it’s more likely there will be consequences for Russia? That doesn’t make sense. This will be my last word on the matter today- very busy. As many posters have pointed out, there is no need to create a buffer between himself and NATO if NATO is going to cease to exist or be greatly diminished due to Trump not realizing the strategic usefulness of something that yes, does cost money – yet does not provide profit in the immediate short term. Now you are easily smart enough to grasp this rather simple concept. If you continue to make comments like this I will personally, have to presume you are either being disingenuous or that have some other agenda than honestly and honorably discussing this matter. Further, it is quite clear now that Putin is making some grave miscalculations. Unless his plan is to destroy his own country or cause a nuclear war, I really do not see where he is a strategic or tactical mastermind. I CAN however, imagine that he is performing a Doctor Evil impersonation! It is not hard for me to imagine that next to him at that long ass table he has a box with red buttons on it which correspond to the seat of each person sitting way at the other end of the table. Being a traditionalist, he may have one labeled “Scott” even if there is not a Scott in the room. Every time he is on camera I halfway expect him to turn toward the camera, put his pinky into the corner of his mouth, and declare that he will pull out of Ukraine for . . . ONE MILLION DOLLARS!! > [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > If that’s the case, you’re doing a horrible job of it. You invented, “a Russian government guided advisor to Trump,” out of whole cloth. Classic straw man. Yep! > [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > So you could have provided evidence of Trump “having planted hundreds of poison pills for the new Biden administration to cope with in furtherance of Putin’s goals.” But I suppose it’s much easier to refute skepticism to conspiracy theories acquainting Trumps actions with Russian orders, rather than provide proof of those theories. Cannot help but think you are being deliberately combative here. You seem to want to argue just for the sake of arguing. What is more, you have not addressed any corrections, clarifications, or explanations that have been made. You keep going back to one specific post, quoting it and asking the same question. How old are you anyway? Are you doing this to avoid studying for midterms? Do you have a moth to the flame fascination with this post? Or with **Aspenglow**? Please contribute something new, acknowledge some of the answers that have already been provided to you, or find a new thread to pointlessly harass. I want to hear dissenting views as much as the next guy, but I am no fan of dissension just for the sake of dissension. Say something new – or say very little. Please. This post is perfectly understandable to everyone else, if you are having that much trouble understanding the meaning of it, perhaps you should contact your educators and ask for a refund of your tuition? Fair warning, you will have to wait until tomorrow for my reply to what I am sure will be a scathing response. Again I will recommend you try understanding and finding agreement over what seems like a deep seated need to be told you are correct about something. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2022, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718/140 "2022-03-02T14:31:55Z")
**Modnote** : This was borderline warning territory. You attacked and insulted **Wrenching\_Spanners**. Do not do this again. Attacking the content of the post is allowed and even encouraged. Attacking the poster anywhere outside the pit is not allowed. > [@Temporary\_Name](#): > > Now you are easily smart enough to grasp this rather simple concept. If you continue to make comments like this I will personally, have to presume you are either being disingenuous or that have some other agenda than honestly and honorably discussing this matter. > [@Temporary\_Name](#): > > Cannot help but think you are being deliberately combative here. You seem to want to argue just for the sake of arguing. > [@Temporary\_Name](#): > > How old are you anyway? Are you doing this to avoid studying for midterms? Do you have a moth to the flame fascination with this post? Or with **Aspenglow**? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-and-russia-with-trump-still-at-the-helm/959718.md?page=8)