# Ukraine is Finally Free! **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 25, 2014, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-is-finally-free/682206 "2014-02-25T07:45:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-is-finally-free/682206/41 "2014-02-27T02:04:08Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > BBC TV is reporting that Nato is warning Russia not to interfere in Ukraine. I think Putin, Obama, Merkel and whoever else matters are all in contact with each other agreeing that an intact and running Ukraine is what everybody wants, even if Ukranians don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-is-finally-free/682206/42 "2014-02-27T02:14:34Z")
Hope so. BBC now says Russia’s just suddenly started military exercises by the Ukrainian border. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-is-finally-free/682206/43 "2014-02-27T02:34:56Z")
Well, they probably don’t have a choice. There’s a lot of Russian equipment and I assume personnel there. They need to prepare to evacuate at least I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-is-finally-free/682206/44 "2014-02-27T15:03:45Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Yeah, those elections in 2015 will now take place in 2014. Surely, history’s greatest triumph for freedom and democracy. And all it took was a gang of fascists and paid troublemakers wreaking havoc on the streets. > > [In Ukraine, fascists, oligarchs and western expansion are at the heart of the crisis | Seumas Milne | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/ukraine-fascists-oligarchs-eu-nato-expansion) : > > Yes, at last the democratically elected government has been subverted by the righteous Jew-hating fascists of democracy. This is very much an absurd distortion of the actual situation there. Yes, it is true that Svoboda is anti-Semitic, and yes it is true that Ukraine has a long, unhappy history of anti-Semitism (as a Jew whose ancestors came from Galicia, fortunately before WW1, I know all about that). However, they are not the main impetus behind the demonstrations, and they are not representative of the reasons for the demonstrations - which, BTW, included many young Ukrainian Jews, who much like “US senator John McCain” were willing to, as it were, hold their noses and demonstrate alongside them. Why were ordinary Ukrainians, including young Ukranian Jews, willing to risk so much to demonstrate against the democratically elected leader, even though that meant marching alongside a (small minority) of undoubted bigots? Because said leader was a kleptocratic gangster attempting to manipulate the constitution to erase limits on his powers with one hand, while selling his country to Russia with the other; he’d amassed a huge fortune while the economy of Ukraine tanked. Will any of the replacement leaders prove an improvement? impossible to say. Unfortunately, Ukraine has an engrained history of political corruption. However, dismissing the demonstraters as paid thugs and fascists is simply a distorion. No doubt some thugs and fascists were among them, but they were taking advantage of a genuine uprising that had quite legitimate popular backing - and while that backing was most obvious in the West, it in fact existed in the East as well, even among Ethnic Russians. The only place where it appears to have faltered in in Crimea, which is a special case - the original inhabitants were ethnically cleansed by the Soviets and largely replaced with ethnic Russians, who look to Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-is-finally-free/682206/45 "2014-02-27T15:04:48Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Well, they probably don’t have a choice. There’s a lot of Russian equipment and I assume personnel there. They need to prepare to evacuate at least I guess. The Russian base in Crimea is on long-term lease and there is no current plans to renege on it. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-is-finally-free/682206/46 "2014-02-27T15:11:31Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The Russian base in Crimea is on long-term lease and there is no current plans to renege on it. I suppose that if the U.S. can keep Gitmo, the Russians can keep their base too. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-is-finally-free/682206/47 "2014-02-27T16:01:52Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > And if the new Ukrainian government publicly calls for NATO protection? Will NATO simply say no? The thing is that if their is a war then the price of popcorn in Beijing is going to increase astronomically. So, no war. Oh and leave Europe in rather worse shape than it was post Black Plague. plus people don’t go to war over silly little squabbles in the arse end of nowhere, especially in years ending in '14. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-is-finally-free/682206/48 "2014-02-27T17:06:36Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The Russian base in Crimea is on long-term lease and there is no current plans to renege on it. Nevertheless, it makes sense for Russia to plan some “maneuvers” nearby. I was just making the point that doesn’t signal an imminent invasion or occupation. At this point neither the West nor Russia wants to deal with a lawless civil war torn country with a crap economy and a racist, fearful bigoted population many of whom like to fire up the crowds with talk of killing the Roma, Jews and immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-is-finally-free/682206/49 "2014-02-27T18:22:31Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Nevertheless, it makes sense for Russia to plan some “maneuvers” nearby. I was just making the point that doesn’t signal an imminent invasion or occupation. At this point neither the West nor Russia wants to deal with a lawless civil war torn country with a crap economy and a racist, fearful bigoted population many of whom like to fire up the crowds with talk of killing the Roma, Jews and immigrants. Again, this is a rather unfair characterization of modern Ukraine, which is undergoing unrest but is not currently torn by civil war; and while it admittedly has a crap economy, the Euromaidan types are hardly calling for pogroms against Roma, Jews or immigrants - rather, they are hoping to incline their country towards the West, rather than Russia (which likewise has issues with bigoted right-wing types, not least with the guy running the place!) I’m not sure why holding “manuevers” “makes sense”, if it is not a threat of invasion. What, exactly, do you think Russia is hoping to accomplish? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ukraine-is-finally-free/682206/50 "2014-02-28T23:23:19Z")
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